(00:00:00) – Intro

full episode

Brent: Good time period boys and girls. Welcome to the Full Mental Bracket podcast. We’re back at you again from our lovely studio powered by the furious Brody Scott. Brent, Paul, coming at you again. You might recall that we just wrapped up a seven-part series on using the Hero’s Journey for personal growth and development and in launching your life into an adventure. And today we have an addendum. We talked about how a Hero’s Journey can help you see your life and make your life more meaningful, but we never really paused to explain what it meant to actually have a meaningful life. So today, we’re going to talk a little bit about meaning.

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Brent: There’s going to be going to be some changes around here. Paul, you want to talk to us about these changes?

Paul: Sure. Coincidentally, it actually has a lot to do with meaning. So if meaning is things that bring value to your life. I would say that this podcast has brought value. Then in terms of purpose, being a highly important overarching aim or a long-term goal, I would say there are some things that take priority. And I am going to have to take a bow. And I would love to join you as a guest, but I have some things that I need to tend to.

Brent: To follow your purpose.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: So you’re getting meaning from the show, but your purpose, our purposes are diverging a path. There were two paths in the woods and I took the purposeful one. Or we’re both taking the purposeful one, just going different directions.

Paul: Well, you know, and I think, I think the, the point here is that there’s values in different things, right? And so this has value.

Brent: Yes. Absolutely.

Paul: But there were some things that I have been involved in and, uh, and I have, I have been called to add some more time to those things. And so I am answering that call.

Brent: And I think that’s, that’s important. Let’s, can we take a minute to just, let’s, let’s just talk about just for a second, a brief working introduction to values. Cause a lot of people throw values. I got values, I got values. And so I didn’t understand values and I did a little bit of research on it. And, and then when you say it, it sounds really obvious when you say it, but people don’t actually think about that.

Paul: They overthink it.

Brent: Everyone, most people, value the same one or two dozen qualities, but in a different order. Your values are what priority you put them in.

Paul: And, you know, perhaps, and we don’t know the scientific number, you said a dozen.

Brent: I’m just guessing. Yeah.

Paul: For some people, it might be only two overlapping.

Brent: I’ve got two values. Sex and drugs. No room for rock and roll. I don’t know. I just made that up. Yeah, but that’s the thing, and we get in these arguments. You have no values. It’s like, no, actually, I prioritize the same things that you do, but this one thing is more important to me than the other thing is to you, and you’ve got it opposite. I’m first place and second place, and you’re like, no, it’s clearly second place and first place, and it’s like. When you look at it that way, a lot of our arguments about values are kind of silly.

Paul: Yeah, well, and I think because people are thinking that by saying that my priority is different, they’re saying that I don’t see your values as important. And that’s not necessarily true.

Brent: And there’s a lot going on with the media environment that’s kind of weaponized that and immoralized that.

Paul: That’s so true.

Brent: If your priorities don’t match mine a lockstep, then you are an immoral, stupid person. It’s like, no, I just have slightly different values than you do. And if we have this conversation, we can, what’s the phrase? More curious, less furious. If we can have a conversation about this, we can, all this aggravation and stuff, it can just go away. Because a lot of it’s just a misunderstanding of the other person. Because we haven’t bothered to understand the other person. We got this whole little straw man. I mean, Paul, he hates me, he’s leaving my show. Well, that’s not exactly true. That’s a caricature that you’ve built in your mind, and if you have a conversation, you see that there’s more to it than that.

Paul: And there’s something else that a lot of people forget, and that is that I don’t know the number. I can’t say if it’s 50-50, but there are so many of our values that we did not choose.

Brent: Oh, that’s true. Yeah.

Paul: We have been shaped by our experiences and a lot of times our values have been developed over time. And I was just reading some studies the other day about how sometimes, I mean they have done hundreds of twin studies and how there’s some values that are even genetic.

Brent: Yes, those twin studies are amazing. But I’ve done some thought, and I wanna get into that later in the show, is that sometimes we get loaded down with these beliefs and these values from our parents and our caregivers, and a lot of them are good, and some of them aren’t good, and some of them outlive their usefulness, but because they were bestowed to me, these are my values, it’s like, how often do you sit down and examine your beliefs? How often do you sit down and examine your, like, is this really more important than this one? I mean, I’ve historically thought that, and it’s become part of my identity, but, in this chapter of my life, maybe number two becomes number one.

Paul: And I don’t think we should judge any values. As good or bad.

Brent: I agree.

Paul: I think that we have to, what you’re saying is more of a transformative process over time. And it really, what I see, especially in my office, is that people are trying to make some sense of their lives and they want to fit into the world. They want to make sure that they’re useful to their community, to their tribe. And so there are some things that they feel very strongly about they don’t even know where it came from. And they might feel strongly about wanting to say they want to create gluten free pastries.

Brent: Right.

Paul: And and yet their entire family, you know, bakes full blown. Full gluten, full butter, you know, that’s who they are, right? And what’s interesting about that is that I could see this transformative process being like, I still value baking. I just think there’s a healthier way to do it, right? And so there you have baking as a value, and then you have health as a value. And so the family, like whoever this individual is, Joe, the baker, he has switched his value. Health is more important than the baking itself. He is actually wanting to create maybe even a synthesis of health and baking.

Brent: No, I like that. And I like that, I like, because I was thinking about these values as a list of ingredients, or maybe even colors in your own personal rainbow. My personal rainbow goes purple, orange, blue. Yeah, well, mine goes blue, orange, purple. And it’s like, you’re clearly an inferior person who I can’t trust. It’s like, but we have the same colors. They’ve just been ranked slightly different.

Paul: That’s actually a good one, like color preferences. That’s such a simple way to explain values. It’s color preferences. You know, it’s like, yeah, it’s like, well, I like this color. Well, why do you like that color? Well, I just do.

Brent: I hadn’t thought about this till just now, but there is a great episode in the classic Star Trek back in the 60s, right? And so Gene Roddenberry, he wanted to talk about the culture of the 60s. But if you preach too close, people would, you know, cancel your show and not listen. So he put all his issues out in space. So he gets these two aliens. One is black on the right and white on the left, and the other is black on the left and white on the right. And he’s like, you two are just alike. We are nothing alike, sir. Can you not see? I am obviously superior to this other person. And it’s like, you’re an idiot. You’re both black and white. No, no, but black on the left is a clear social, you know, I am clearly, and it’s like, you have the same, you’ve chosen that your order is a social thing, is a social cue that you are the bomb and everyone else is not.

Paul: They did a good job of addressing a lot of socio-political issues.

Brent: Once you looked at it that way, you’re like, a lot of our racial issues is really kind of stupid. And he’s like, that was the point. Dropping the mic. In a galaxy far away.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. I think even as a child, I think Star Trek helped shape my values.

Brent: And he was just wanting people to think.

Paul: Yeah, in Star Wars, by the way.

Brent: Yeah, absolutely. Star Wars is a little more black and white. We’re the good guys, we’re the bad guys. I’ll chop you down with a sword. Star Trek is a little more like, all right, we’re at an impasse, we could shoot each other, but what if we talked about it a little bit?

Paul: Until you find out about the sect of Jedi that are allowed to marry, then you realize there’s a synthesis, whatever. That’s another story.

Brent: All right.

Paul: You’ll have to have me on for a guest for that one.

Brent: Yes, yes. So what was the, uh, we’re going horribly off topic and I don’t even care.

Paul: Look, I know.

Brent: I don’t even care.

Paul: I’ll bring us back. So years ago, because we’re still on values. Years ago, when I was getting my graduate degree, I got roped into a doctoral study. A student who was studying, he was developing a measure of adolescent purpose.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: And he was reading some things that I was developing for a curriculum for adolescents. And he was like, man, would you like to join me on this project? And what a wonderful project it was. I mean, I think we, together, we developed some questionnaires and obviously a working definition of purpose. And one of the key researchers that he drew data from was a gentleman named Michael Steger. And if you do a little research on Michael Steger, Dr. Steger has devoted much of his life to meaning and purpose, to developing a working model of how to help people find meaning in life. And we’ve already been doing a lot of work on this show, talking about Viktor Frankl and how he was a pioneer in developing a type of therapy.

Brent: Went on to logo therapy.

Paul: Yeah, which we’re going to talk about a little bit later. So just to give you an idea, I think that Michael Steger, he took lots of ideas about meaning and purpose. And his goal was, let’s come up with something that everybody can agree on. You know, that’s a comprehensive idea of what is meaning, what is purpose.

Brent: So he’s kind of multidisciplinary. Okay, I like that.

Paul: So he came up with this, meaning in life, feelings of significance, and I put in parentheses value, and mattering about one’s life, being able to make sense of and comprehend one’s life and having purpose. I put, how do I fit into my tribe? And he defined purpose as identifying and pursuing one or more highly important values, overarching aims, or long-term goals that help organize life choices and actions.

Brent: Okay. So, meaning includes purpose.

Paul: Includes purpose, but purpose is a more long-term scope.

Brent: Gotcha.

Paul: Yes. And, you know, if you dive in a little bit, we’ve already talked a little bit about this idea of the comfort zone, right? And Michael Steger talked a little bit about how you have this meaning in life that can be very shallow. Like, I did not do a comprehensive report on Shallow Hell, but I did watch that recently.

Brent: Okay. I haven’t seen that one, but I’ve heard a bit about it.

Paul: But it really fits into some of this, and we’ll talk about it. But his meaning in life was very hedonic, right? Just short-term pleasure, right? And Michael Steger describes it as associated with simple, simple happiness, enjoying food, spending time with friends, laughing. And then there’s another level of meaning, which is eudaimonic, which is pursuing personal growth, meaning and fulfillment. And so this is associated with self-reflection and living a deeply satisfying life.

Brent: And I like that, and I believe we’ve talked about that before, the difference between the hedonic and the eudaimonic. Oh, we talked about the metaphor of the guitar note. Like the hedonic, the intense pleasure and pain were like the initial transient of the note. And then, but it’s over that quick. Oh, that was quick. I’m disappointed now. I saved up all my money for this thing and five minutes later it’s done. But the eudaimonic, the more value and satisfaction is long sustaining satisfaction note kind of thing. And so that’s why it’s important to have both of them.

Paul: Yes. And I made a point to say that, you know, if you, if you think that life’s meaning is wrapped up solely in hedonic desires, you’re going to judge your suffering as bad. Right. And that reminded me of a quote that I use in grief counseling, which is misery is suffering without meaning. And guess who said that?

Brent: Frankel.

Paul: Yes, he did.

Brent: That’s genius. Cause I’ve been doing some thinking about that. It’s like, we have this instinctive interpretation of pleasure and pain. This is good. This is bad. But we, as a privilege of being a human being, we have the opportunity to reflect on that and like, well, okay, so this feels bad, but what long-term value does it have?

Paul: Yeah. And you gotta think like, Biologically, you know, the hedonic side of desire is so primitive.

Brent: Right. It’s like, it’s part of the, I think it’s part of the primitive autopilot.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: The body’s emotions and subconscious are like, this feels good, this feels bad. It’s busy saying, if it feels good, do it. It’s like, yeah, that’s, as anyone who’s had 60,000 cheeseburgers can tell you, that is not a good rule for living. It’s like, oh, it felt so good in the moment and now it feels so terrible.

Paul: But like you said, we can be informed by it, and it can be helpful.

Brent: Yeah, you don’t distrust it. There are some people, I think even in their Christian faith, they’re kind of more of a Gnostic thing, like the pleasure is evil, there’s the mind and the spirit, and there’s like, no, they’re all together, they’re one entity.

Paul: It’s like, why did God give us sex then?

Brent: Yeah, it’s a good input on your life, but it’s not the only input.

Paul: Yeah, I mean, to the point where I recently went to a seminar and they were talking about how Song of Solomon has nothing about children or reproduction. you know, an entire book in scripture that all it has to do with is the pleasure of sex. So obviously we can’t be judging the hedonic desires.

Brent: That whole book is about intimacy and sex and then throughout 2,000 years of church history. It really wasn’t sexy sex. It was about, oh, come on. Oh, man. Dude, priest so-and-so, just don’t, just stop. It’s totally… in the way that the church I grew up with was like, well, you know, they talk a lot about wine, but we really like our grape juice around here. It’s just, we’d hate for anyone to have too much fun. It’s like, oh, okay, whatever. Nevermind. I’m not even going to get into that. But yeah, but it’s that kind of thing. It’s like, we distrust it. Because there’s a balance. So if you feel like you can’t strike the balance, or if you’re afraid of striking that balance, then maybe you just put it in the corner and say, I’m not going to touch it at all. And for a case for like an alcoholic or an addict, that’s a good idea. Hey, I clearly cannot strike this balance. I’m going to put it in the corner. But I don’t think everything qualifies for that.

Paul: No.

Brent: Every good thing, every enjoyable thing. Yeah. Oh, no. I’m enjoying myself too much. I’m going to put myself in time out. All right. Back to misery.

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Paul: I do like this next section. The meaning? Yeah. I think it was like I stumbled on it. And it was this idea of like, there’s a difference between meaning in life and meaning of life.

Brent: And I think that’s really good because meaning is one of those words that seems to have a lot of meaning, which is ironic. It’s like, what do you even, so you’re just like, it’s like, you try to, if you don’t define the scope, like, let’s talk about the meaning of life. And it’s like, well, how come you’re talking about all this esoteric weird stuff I’m just talking about? I want to get something out of going to the grocery store, and this is these categories that you’re talking about.

Paul: Real quick, and I think this is an example of me in life. Okay, I like going back to that example of the colors.

Brent: All right.

Paul: Okay. My favorite color is turquoise or teal. Teal green.

Brent: So our website worked out really well for you.

Paul: Oh, I love it.

Brent: Glowing teal.

Brent: We have a website. You should check it out.

Paul: Yes, you should. You should. And I will be a guest on this website.

Brent: All right. I was talking to listeners. We have a website and it’s a comforting teal. All approved.

Paul: You just said it. So why is it a preference of mine? Why does it hold value to me? And you just use a word that is meaningful to me. It is calming, comforting, right? And even more so, it has to do with water. I had experiences when I was young, water was very soothing in a very tumultuous time in my childhood. Then all of a sudden you see why this color…

Brent: This connects.

Paul: …the value is connected to an experience and now it has meaning.

Brent: I like that. Yeah. I like that.

Paul: And I like these movies that we’re going to get into too. Because there’s an important part of all of this. I think that story is a huge part in helping people derive meaning.

Brent: Oh, I think so. Absolutely. I’m still just thinking about your favorite color and trying to find meaning. I’ll have to think about that some more. My favorite color is like Klein blue, like half purple, half blue. I have no idea what that means. It’s like a UV light shining in your eyeballs. Like everything needs to be super excitable or I don’t know what that means.

Paul: I think we just got closer.

Brent: I think we have to meditate on that.

Paul: Yeah. Well, I mean, I know other people out there, you know, like hues and different things, but to meet another person that likes a conglomerate of colors. That’s cool.

Brent: Yeah, that’s cool. And that’s something I’ve come across. There’s some new people I’ve met, maybe kind of quasi joining the family a little bit. And it’s like, you know, just getting to know someone’s music, I just feel like I know them much better. And I thought, That’s absolutely true. I hadn’t really thought about that. As you share what you love and what you like, it draws you. It’s part of that story, bringing people together, which is a value that we hit on in the show. So continue. Tell us about this meaning.

Paul: Well, the meaning in, right, it’s making our lives worth living, which is a huge piece of the counseling strategy that I use is the very first thing that I do when I’m talking with somebody is I find out what their life worth living goals are.

Brent: Right.

Paul: And it’s just such a good way to help someone identify where their compass is set. And, yeah.

Brent: I like that because I think people have a compass, but oftentimes they don’t ask that question. I have no meaning. It’s like, really? Let’s ask you a few questions.

Paul: Questions.

Brent: Where does your autopilot direct you? Where do your preferences direct you? Where do your values direct you?

Paul: Questions.

Brent: You might find that you do have a purpose, you just haven’t put it in those words.

Paul: I feel like I just need to skip for just a second. So, Frankl, in his verbiage, in his terminology, He always uses discovering or exploring, so in these values that he finds hidden within meaning, when you’re trying to find meaning, he actually, he always says, find, finding the meaning, he talks about realizing the meaning, he talks about discovering, defining, I mean, I just, what I like is, you know, earlier in the show we were talking about how values, some of those, they already exist. It’s not like we made them happen.

Brent: We just have to find them.

Paul: We gotta find them. Now, I do believe, like you mentioned, sometimes we find that there’s something that that we value, that is juxtaposed to a family value. And then we have to, what you’re saying is, how do we resolve that or bring some peace, some inner peace? I think it’s that questioning, asking yourself questions, like you said.

Brent: It’s been useful to me. Well, first of all, because when you talk about Frenkel and the discovering thing, it reminded me of kind of our motto. We’re discovering the tools in everyday life. It’s not like we’re inventing them. We’re not like a bunch of Lord of the Rings dwarfs, like, bang, bang, under the mines. Like, hey, I found this tool. Paul, have you seen this tool? Yes, it’s an amazing tool. Hey, let’s tell the people about it. We’re just, we’re out discovering what’s out there.

Paul: Yes, yes.

Brent: And I like that. I like, I like DeFranco’s like about that too. It’s like, Hey man, there’s a lot of stuff out there. You just got to open your eyes and you can find it.

Paul: Yes, yes. Anyway, to, I think wrap up the idea of meaning and the meaning of, you know, meaning of is just, it’s that huge question, you know, that’s answers to questions that we don’t know.

Brent: Yes, it’s philosophical and religious and why are we here and the whole thing.

Paul: It’s worth exploring, but I think you made a note, that you don’t necessarily have to find the meaning of life in order to find the meaning in life.

Brent: Yes. And as I was thinking about our story examples, I was finding out how many times that when these people found meaning in their life, it kind of gave them a clue to the meaning of life. It was like one leads to the other, but the other doesn’t necessarily, it might lead to the other one, but it’s more dry academic kind of thing versus a story driven thing. Yeah, because a lot of people I think they like, well, let me talk about the, like in a philosophical, like philosophy rap battle about the meaning of life. And it’s like, yes, that’s important, but not as important to your daily existence as the meaning in your life. How do you interpret and value the activities that you do? The good ones and the bad ones. The events that hit you, good or bad or otherwise, how do you define those?

Paul: What’s so funny is if they weren’t in a power struggle, they could actually just sit and listen to each other and figure out what the values were.

Brent: Less furious, more curious. That’s all about it. You could take that to the bank.

Paul: Yes, yes, yes.

Brent: It’s just good.

Paul: You had written in here, you said, wrestling with big questions. I mean, your questions define you more than rote answers.

Brent: I believe so, yeah.

Paul: Well, in Radically Open Dialectical Behavior Therapy, Dr. Lynch talks about how answers that come quickly They represent our wealth of knowledge that we already have. We get really uncomfortable when we approach this edge of what we don’t know. And that is actually our signal of where we need to be.

Brent: The discomfort. When you’re feeling that resistance, that’s a sign that you should push in some more.

Paul: Ask more questions.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Explore.

Brent: And it seems kind of tied into, I think what we’re talking about in episode four, just about creativity in a number game. The easy answers are usually, usually not the best answers. The first five that come to mind are they’re just everyday facts. It’s like, let’s dig deeper into something that’s a more creative, more meaningful and more in a good indication of who you are as a person and what you’re actually struggling with.

Paul: Yes. Uh, I am. Yes.

Brent: I think there’s too overlap a little bit.

Paul: Absolutely. Well, I’m laughing because I was with a group the other night playing a game called quiplash and it’s the best answers that get this. They got this group. We’re very hedonic in nature, like quick, right? Like, right. Like what is the most, what is the most eye-catching or ear-catching phrase that you can come up with? You know, and it’s funny because every once in a while, somebody’d be like, Paul, answer the question. I’m like, I’m trying to be creative. This is not for creativity.

Brent: Snap it out.

Paul: Stop being creative.

Brent: You know, you just, you just gave me an idea for like, maybe, maybe the, or the hedonic versus the eudaimonic again, it’s like, so like, When I get some coffee or some chocolate, I immediately, like, oh, this is good, this is sweet, this is great. Yeah, and it’s also ethically harvested and sustained. It’s like, well, that’s nice, but I mean, if it tasted like crap, that really is not gonna carry, that great meaningful meaning doesn’t help mediate a bad coffee. You know, so they’ve gotta be both. If you, for the full, I don’t know, that was random, but it just hit me. Chocolate.

Brent: Oh. So on the topic of completely random things, my wife and I have decided for Christmas, we’re going to have a charcuterie board and just have a bunch of random chocolates. Just try them one after another.

Paul: I love it.

Brent: You didn’t ask for that listeners. That was a free bonus. Nevermind. We’ll let you know how it turned out.

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Paul: I think we need to get to the movies quick. So I want to breeze by Frankel’s ideas revolving around meaning and purpose. So he has three different categories for what cultivates meaning in someone’s life. He has this creative values, and this is my paraphrase, this is like the value that you have in what you what you give toward the world in creative terms, right? So this could be productive works Artistic masterpieces. This could even be sports. This could be Storytelling.

Brent: Okay. I like that.

Paul: So I I kind of put giving as a macro Type of meaning. Okay The second one is experiential, and this is realizing the values that you have by what others give you. So I put getting what you get as a macro.

Brent: Okay, I don’t think that makes more sense now. I didn’t understand that part.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: So, you know, what kind of values do we discover or realize as people are entertaining us or encouraging us, right? Like I, or side note, I’ve had somebody encourage me before and I appreciated their intent.

Brent: Right.

Paul: But what they said didn’t hit me.

Brent: Execution. It wasn’t good.

Paul: Well, I mean, you know, I appreciated it.

Brent: Can these experiential values be negative? Can you receive something bad from someone and have to value that in some way?

Paul: I imagine so.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: However, I think that you’re still defining, like, what is the value, right? Because if somebody, well, for instance, let’s say somebody gives me this word of advice and they think that they’re being encouraging. I think it took some time and lots of questions, self-inquiry for myself to discover, you know what? I like validation more than I like advice.

Brent: Gotcha.

Paul: And so I realized that validation is like very high on my values list.

Brent: You know, we keep talking about interpreting your experience and what interpretation, but it might still be a little abstract. It occurs to me that, Paul, in your experience, you do some weightlifting, you do some running. Those involve some muscle…

Paul: Running is only if I’m doing a certain activity like a triathlon. Okay.

Brent: That’s not… But you’ve done a triathlon, right? You’ve done a triathlon, you do powerlifting. So you get this muscle pain, you get this exhaustion, but whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing depends on your purpose and your meaning. I am training for this thing. I’m getting stronger. It’s like, I’m suffering. No, I’m not. I’m getting stronger. So you have the opportunity. It’s the same. The same pain is good or bad depending on how you have chosen to interpret it. And that’s what we’re talking about here.

Paul: Well, actually, you have defined the third category of Frankel’s…

Brent: I feel like it should be sound effect. Yes. Tell him what he’s won.

Paul: Yes, actually. So these are attitudinal values.

Brent: Okay. Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. Yeah. It makes perfect sense how you adjust your attitude.

Paul: Adjusting your attitude. Yeah. I even put down posture. Yes. So your posture, the way that you see it. But yes, this is the influence of the feedback from others or the influence from cause effect occurrences.

Brent: Because we mentioned previously that in aviation terms, attitude is where your airplane is pointed. Left, right, up, or down. Your attitude determines where you’re going to go. Yes. Up to the sky, or crash into the ground, or into the wrong country. The attitude is what’s going to steer you there.

Paul: Yes, yes. So this gentleman, Umura, doing some Frankl digging, found this guy that did a paper and I kind of liked what he came up with. He realized that even though Frankl didn’t talk a lot about the word connection, which is a buzzword now, even in research, that Frankl was indeed talking about connection without saying the word connection. And he actually decided that in his paper he would create this fourth category, and he called it the co-existent values. These are values that are defined, values that are realized by having meaningful relationships, togetherness with others.

Brent: So maybe the value just kind of lays undiscovered until you connect with another person.

Paul: And I think

Brent: Maybe it’s created, maybe it’s unveiled, maybe it’s, I don’t know. Maybe it was there the whole time, but until you get with somebody you didn’t see it.

Paul: Well, and I’m even thinking like you’ve got this, you know, these orbs that a lot of people can think of when they think of how close they are to a person.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: And so they’ve got, you know, relationships get closer, you know, into the middle where, you know, you are. And so I was actually kind of thinking about this fourth, I’m sorry, the fourth category of Umira being like this inner circle. You know, where there’s even more values discovered within that close proximity.

Brent: Intimacy is defined as closeness. The closer you get, the more intimate your relationship is. So something I was wondering is like, do you think that connects to our idea of relational wealth?

Paul: So I changed it to an exclamation point.

Brent: Oh, it does. I didn’t see that. It’s not a question mark. It’s like, yes. One thousand percent.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: So Uemura and us.

Paul: Yes. Yes. OK. Exactly.

Brent: It’s not a competition.

Paul: So Uemura said, it can be affirmed that finding meaning in life by telling and sharing one’s story with others occurs very often. And we’ve already said this, but here it is, you know, in these lofty research papers. Fulfilling one’s creative values is precious, and telling it as a story or past memory is also valuable.

Brent: So you can say something, but until academics repeat it in lofty academic terms, that’s how you know you’ve really arrived. You heard it here first, folks.

Paul: We could do a whole podcast on that idea.

Brent: This is something I’ve been thinking about a lot recently. So there’s a thing, and it’s, warning, this is almost completely off topic, there’s a thing called the Feinman method, where if you think you understand something, you explain it to a grade school child, the origin of explaining it to a fifth grader. So as you have to explain it down, and you have to step out from behind your buzzwords and your jargon, and you have to actually explain what it means, and you’re like, and your mouth drops open and you realize that you’ve been leaning so hard on these buzzwords as a crutch that you really can’t clearly explain what you mean. And I think that’s part of what the academic thing is like. That’s part of the role of this show is like, all right, let’s take what the academics say, let’s crack that nut, break that egg and see what comes out and see if we can’t explain this in a way that makes more sense, more distinctive sense.

Paul: Yeah, I do this every day. I feel like I have 20 different ways of explaining one thing. I literally will talk to one person at eight o’clock in the morning and explain some concept and they’re like, oh, that’s so good. And now I’ll be like, explain it the same exact way and they don’t get it at two o’clock. They’re like, I don’t get it. Three o’clock, you know, different explanation. Same concept, different explanation. It’s just different for different people.

Brent: So now you can use your winner. It’s like, it’s, life’s a video game. You gotta level up. I was like, oh, I get it.

Paul: Yeah. And I even found a book that talked about that. Yeah.

Brent: Did you?

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: All right.

Paul: Remember I sent it to you. It was like leveling up.

Brent: Oh, you did. You did.

Paul: Okay. Yeah.

Brent: There’s a book. We’ll have to cite it. We’ll have to cite it and put it in the show notes. There’s a book about leveling up. He sent it to me. I got distracted.

Paul: Yep. I already let somebody borrow it and they said it was great. Very inspiring, motivating.

Brent: That happens to me. I buy books and then never get to reading them because no one will give them back.

Paul: I know.

Brent: People only love me for my books.

Paul: I know.

Brent: So let’s look at some of these, let’s look at some of the, you’re ready to talk about some stories, examples, story examples?

Paul: Let’s do it.

Brent: Right, so I was thinking about this, and some of the stories we’ve already gone over before, and maybe how some of these concepts apply. We talked about Groundhog Day, right? So Phil Connors, Bill Murray, is trapped in an endless time loop. You know, we talked about 1,000, maybe he’s trapped in there for 1,000 years. Some people were saying he might be in there for 30 or 40,000 years. He was like trapped in this time loop forever. He was a jerk, and he was trapped in this time loop. But he learns to make the most of his life. He finds meaning in his life within these limitations. I am trapped in the same day. I can be miserable every day, or I can learn, I can find some meaning in these things.

Paul: And we talked about it taking, a thousand years, according to the writer.

Brent: Yeah. And then some other people were saying that he might have been in there for 30 or 40,000 years. I’m just like, I mean, if you’re that much of a jerk, it takes 40,000 years to break it down.

Paul: I mean, I can relate. I feel like I’ve taken way too long to learn some things.

Brent: Oh, yeah. So we got to dial it back on. No, but I understand that. But think about some of the things that he learned while he was in that loop. He developed his physical skills. He learned to play piano. He learned to sculpt. He learned the Heimlich maneuver, because this guy that would choke to death every night in front of him, he’s like, someone’s got to save this guy.

Paul: He’s a hero.

Brent: You know, he learned some emotional and social skills. He learned compassion and empathy and human connection. And what’s interesting is like, I thought about it, I was thinking about this the other day, and it’s like, if you were trapped in a time loop and you saw the same things over and over again, I think for me, I would maybe lose compassion for those people. The same thing happens every day. You joke to death every day because you’re too greedy and ate too fast. I’m just gonna let you die. But he does the opposite.

Paul: I don’t know.

Brent: He learns.

Paul: I think it might have been a change curve.

Brent: Oh, that’s true.

Paul: I think he might have kind of come down and didn’t care about anything for a minute.

Brent: He got kind of a little suicidal there in the middle.

Paul: Right.

Brent: He was like, I don’t even want to get out of bed anymore. And then that got old. And that, I mean, he did that for a thousand years and that got old. I was like, I got to do something different. But he was stuck. He, like us, he is. He finds himself in this life with these limits that we can’t control, these events that happen to us. We only live for so long, then it’s going to be over for him. He is never going to be over. It’s the opposite limit, but it’s still, it’s the same kind of thing. I’m trapped within the constraints, the constraints of creativity. I have these constraints on my life. How am I going to embrace them to creatively bring value to this life? Because you’re going to live anyway.

Paul: I know.

Brent: Are you going to have a meaningless life or a meaningful life?

Paul: Exactly.

Brent: You’re going to live so long and then you’re going to die. How you do that and the value that you create and discover and find and give to other people is entirely up to you.

Paul: And when he finally learned the lesson, he leveled up.

Brent: He did.

Paul: Right. So I was thinking about the story and I was thinking about in terms of purpose and meaning. Okay. And I was thinking about how his, he, he had no purpose. He was so short term focused that his, his only goal was to get the girl. Then he develops this longterm sense of purpose, but not before, like I mentioned, he kind of goes into this rut, You know, he’s like, I give up, right? And I just…

Brent: Stole the groundhog and drove off the cliff.

Paul: Right. …Which was hilarious, you know? But I think eventually he saw the futility of the hedonic life, right?

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: So instead of just getting laid, he wants this life worth living.

Brent: And we talk, and a phrase that comes up is the hedonic treadmill. It’s like you want this cool thing off Amazon, you buy it, it’s good for two days or two weeks, and then you feel empty again and you buy another one. It’s because the hedonic pleasures are by definition temporary. You want to make, I want to make that a sustaining thing. Only purpose works like that. Well, I don’t want purpose, I want to buy it. You can’t buy purpose. You have to build it. You have to discover it. You have to explore it.

Paul: And I can see how if you, if you can attach meaning to something that it will have a longer term.

Brent: Yes. Yes.

Paul: You know, lifespan. You know, like, uh, you know, you get, you buy a truck and this is the same truck, you know, that your grandfather drove, you know, and, and now this truck doesn’t really get old to you because every day you get into it, it reminds you of the legacy that your grandfather left.

Brent: I found, I found some, I don’t know if I put it on your copy, but I found something, some experiments to kind of do this. There was these, um, a couple of experiments. Now, one of them was these guys, they hooked these guys up to electric shocks and they zapped them. And some of them, they told them it was accidental. And some of them, they told them it was intentional. And the people that received the shocks that they thought were intentional, they measure them as lasting longer and more painful than the people who didn’t. And they were the exact same shocks. that your meaning, the eudaimonic, actually can come back and modify the hedonic. How you experience actual pleasure and pain can be modulated and changed by, and it happens the other way around. They have these people, an fMRI on their, in this thing, and they drink this wine, And it’s this cheap wine, but they tell them it’s super expensive, and their brain lights up like, ooh, I’m really, and they weren’t lying to themselves. They actually perceived this wine as super expensive and more pleasurable, but the wine didn’t change. The value changed the pleasure of it, which I think is an important tool for us. It’s like, if something in your life sucks, you can actively change how much that sucks by the way that you interpret it. Especially like you always talk about acceptance. It’s like if there’s something you can’t change, you have a strong motivation to reinterpret that and find a way that you can grow from that. And the way that you can moderate that instead of going, oh, my life is terrible. It’s like, well, like like Groundhog Day, how many how many days in a row are you going to steal the groundhog? I mean, you got to. something’s got to change eventually.

Paul: Yeah, and I think it’s worth repeating that that fourth category that Uemura identified was that in the context of relationships, that is the catalyst when there’s attitudinal change.

Brent: Because he’s, yeah, because Phil is largely alone. And he starts building his tribe when he’s in there. He makes some friends. He even found a guy from his high school. He starts to like seduce this other woman and that didn’t work and he becomes friends with her instead. And he just, he gets to know these, the members of this town, one piece of trivia at a time. And it seems to go with his change. Because other than that, he was all by himself. People tried to be nice to him at the beginning of the movie. It’s like, I hate you. Let’s get out of this town. I don’t want to be your friend. I don’t want to be here. I’m too good for this and too good for you. It’s like, hmm, that’s an attitude that’s not going to deliver a lot of growth.

Paul: So it takes 20,000 years for a narcissist to change.

Brent: It might. It might. I mean, if we had some time machines laying around, we could do some experiments. It’d be inhumane, but it’d be fun. So also another one that happens like this, we’ve talked about is stranger than fiction. Which, because I’m dedicated to the show, I sat down and watched that movie again last night.

Paul: Oh!

Brent: So good!

Paul: It is a good movie.

Brent: It’s so good. So, um, Harold Crick finds out, instead of being trapped in a time loop, he’s trapped in someone else’s narration. That someone else is literally writing his life. And we’ve talked about this in previous episodes, that the protagonist makes the most of their life, but they’re not writing the story. Events are gonna happen, plots are gonna drive forward, you got these choices, but you are not the god of your own story. You don’t get to…

Paul: Yeah, the balance between the internal and external locus of control.

Brent: There’s a huge chasm in front of me. Well, make it go away. Like, nope, that’s not an option. You’re gonna have to build a bridge or go around or do something. So, uh… So, but he starts protagging. He’s the definition of passive. I was like, he doesn’t, when other people were planning things, he just counted stuff. He just sat there. I noticed how many times he was antisocial. He went, his lunch, he took half of a lunch hour and didn’t talk to anybody. He was looking at catalogs for adding machines. He took his three minute coffee break and while other people were talking, he’s chugging, he doesn’t talk to anybody except for the one guy. And even him is only half a friend. He has no tribe.

Paul: Yeah. Those are very ineffective, asocial behaviors.

Brent: But as he comes into this, and he starts talking to the literature professor, and he starts talking to people, then as he starts to protag and take activity, take autonomy over his life, he also starts reaching out to other people. He’s forming his tribe as well. I was realizing how much of these stories talk about our six steps over here. These guys, they protag, they say, all right, I’m gonna, you know, we talked about how, and he’s sitting there in his living room and the wrecking ball comes in. It’s like, well, I guess I’m going to have to undertake the adventure because I can’t hide from it.

Paul: And this is what makes it a principle. Something that you see over and over.

Brent: And over again Yeah.

Paul: Woven into the fabric of these stories.

Brent: So he starts living his life to the fullest. He learns guitar. He romances Anna Pascal. He ventures well outside of his comfort zone. He breaks the routine that defined his life. His life was very much a routine, and he breaks out of it.

Paul: He learns to take meaning.

Brent: So in both of these stories, you find that people have to turn off the autopilot and decide to protag. They’ve been living by autopilot so far. With Phil Connors, he was just this narcissistic thing. And with Harold Crick, it was just kind of this passive drone-like existence. They leave their comfort zone, they build a tribe, they embrace the difficulties, they grow, and they bring back a legacy of wisdom and experience. Which is what we talked about, the hero’s journey kind of demonstrates a life of meaning. And then today we kind of define what meaning means.

Paul: Have you ever seen the Peter Peanutbutter Falcon?

Brent: I don’t think so.

Paul: Oh, man.

Brent: Tell me about it.

Paul: So I was thinking about this episode and I was like, what movie has meaning and purpose that is something that has caught my heart in the past?

Brent: The Peanut Butter Falcon.

Paul: Oh, man. Yeah, you got to check it out. So Zach, he is this young man with Down syndrome and he escapes from a nursing home with the help of his elderly roommate, and he is wanting to become a trained wrestler. And so he escapes. And in order to find his dream, he just takes off.

Brent: Sounds very pro-jaggy.

Paul: Yes. Yes. But he doesn’t have any resources.

Brent: Right. Right.

Paul: Right. So he runs into this gentleman named Tyler, who is a man, I would say, without purpose, without meaning in life. And we’re talking about this guy. He’s just escaping from burning somebody’s illegal crab catchers. And he’s into some trouble with the police. All he’s doing is trying to escape from conflict.

Brent: Wanton destruction and random events. Kind of an anarchist running around. I getcha.

Paul: So, lo and behold, these two meet up. Now, I think that Tyler sees an opportunity to have some personal gain out of the situation, right? Very hedonic, hedonic driven, right?

Brent: Kind of a Rain Man dynamic. You got this guy that I can take advantage of.

Paul: Yes, yes. So, of course, this guy being an outlaw, he becomes Zach’s unexpected coach and ally. So over the course of this journey, Tyler begins to, he decides, he’s like, you know what? This life, I have no meaning. This is actually giving me some kind of meaning. I’m gonna help you get to this.

Brent: He’s gonna be an outlaw. He joins the outlaw gang.

Paul: No, no, no, other way.

Brent: Oh, the other way, I’m sorry.

Paul: He helps Zach.

Brent: Oh, he goes straight?

Paul: Yeah, go in and reach this.

Brent: So our protag inspires this guy to go straight.

Paul: Exactly.

Brent: I gotcha. Yeah, that’s a better story.

Paul: Yeah, and it’s well and it’s not without its try and fail cycles, right?

Brent: Going straight is not for the faint of heart.

Paul: So, I mean, he actually, you know, they run into a young lady, you know, there’s love, but again, you have these character traits that are very hedonic in nature, right? And so over the course of this journey, again, he discovers that he would much rather have a long-term fulfilling life than these short bursts of pleasing events. And so it’s an amazing story. It’s very inspiring because you’re talking about a special needs person who is inspiring somebody who has no meaning and purpose in life. And they help one another. So Tyler helps Zach reach his goals and he meets this like old retired wrestler who’s like a nobody, you know, and he reaches his dreams. And then of course, Tyler comes out transformed.

Brent: That’s cool. I like that. I’ll have to check that out.

Paul: Yeah, check it out. So, you know, my takeaways were Tyler has to give up his expectations of the way that life was supposed to be. I think that early on he had some expectations. He finds meaning in the relationship with Zach and Eleanor, the young lady. His journey, this is a Frankl idea. His journey reorients him to think about his future.

Brent: And I think that’s an idea we’ve talked about before, is that sometimes getting a glimpse of the legacy is what it takes to turn your life around. Like Tony Stark, your legacy is death and destruction. Do you want to be that person? Yes or no?

Paul: Yes. Discovering long-term purpose in the friendship and meaningful romance.

Brent: I like that. That’s good. He’s a demonstration of a meaningful story, which is, as we keep mentioning, that what makes this hero’s journey timeless is that it seems to demonstrate what a meaningful life looks like in various different guises.

Paul: Indeed.

Brent: And the thing that you talked about with his giving up his life, it reminded me of our Campbell quote, you have to let go of, you have to let go of the life you’ve planned so you’d be ready to accept the life that’s coming to you.

Paul: Nice.

Brent: Because once again, like that big Canyon, there’s a big Canyon. I didn’t expect this Canyon. They’re like, well, surprise. What would you like to do with you? Would you like to have your Canyon gift wrapped, sir? He’s like, no, no, get it out of here.

Paul: Would you like to pitch a fit?

Brent: Yes. And sometimes, we’ve mentioned that sometimes, that’s a good, that’s part of, sometimes that can be part of comfort. You’re like, all right, I’m gonna pitch a fit for five minutes and then I’m gonna get back to protagging.

Paul: It’s very unattractive looking.

Brent: It’s unattractive look. Ask me how I know. But you can’t stay there. You can’t live there. You gotta get, that’s a guilty pleasure maybe, sometimes to vent or whatnot, but then you get back. All right, so now I feel better. What are we gonna do about it? Shall we complain some more? Like, that’s really not gonna move us forward.

Paul: Seems to be a coping skill for you, though.

Brent: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Paul: Not you.

Brent: Not me? Okay. This… Alright.

Paul: This hypothetical person.

Brent: Yes. Yes. Well, they say that, with some truth, that people in the military take great pleasure in complaining. They compete. Oh, yeah? Well, my ship was so leaky, let me tell you. And it was like complaining is like this high art. And so I agree.

Paul: I’m preparing for these conversations at Christmas with extended family.

Brent: Yes. Oh, yeah? You thought your life sucked? Listen to this. I was like, but those are all self-inflicted. Shh. Shh.

Announcer: This is the Full Mental Bracket. – 49:19

Brent: All right, so we have some episode takeaways to take away from this conversation here. So a question for you, Bracketeers, what would you say, if I were to ask you, and I am, what is the balance, what is your personal balance between a good life and a meaningful life? How is your balance between pleasure and meaning between growth and comfort, is that a good balance for you? Are you leaning too far one way or the other? What can you do to adjust to be more successful in your life?

Paul: And you may continue wrestling with the meaning of life and we can still find meaning in life.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Frankl said that existential frustration is good for mental health.

Brent: I didn’t have to think about that one.

Paul: Again, another something that I’ve got to unpack. So, well, it’s just this idea that, you know, struggling with who am I, how do I fit in everything? I need to find meaning. I need to identify my values, discover if I need to adjust my values and that’s okay. That struggle is okay.

Brent: Could we apply that quote back to our Tony Stark example? It’s like, here’s your existential frustration. You’re trapped in a cave. It’s going to be transformative for your mental health. It’s going to pull your head out of your butt and you’re going to start focusing on life. But this sucks. You did this to yourself. You did this to yourself. I like that. Yeah, so when we talk about, as Paul was saying, between the meaning in life and the meaning of life, what is it that makes your life meaningful? What activities, what values, what goals, when you get up and you’re doing stuff, what are you pursuing? What is it that’s actually instilling your activities with value?

Paul: Yes, or I like to ask, what is your life worth living goal?

Brent: Life worth living goal.

Paul: Or plural, what are your life worth living goals?

Brent: And like we said, even if you can’t state that right now, as we ask you, it doesn’t mean you don’t have one. It just means you’ve got to wrestle.

Paul: Exactly.

Brent: Sometimes those first five answers you’ve got to toss out and you’ve got to really think about it. Take some time and think about it. Because this is going to bear dividends for you. Once you know what your meaning is, once you know what your purpose is, then you can intentionally lean into it.

Paul: Yeah, like you mentioned earlier, I can’t lift heavier weight unless I work through the struggle of lifting a weight that I can’t lift.

Brent: Yes, you have to embrace with it. Because when you embrace adversity, that’s when you grow. And if you don’t, then you don’t grow. Why am I not growing? So how’s your adversity track record? All right, so that wraps it up for this episode, I believe. Thank you, Bracketeers. We are very excited to share with you and be on the air with you. Be sure to tell your friends about this podcast. We have a newsletter, we have a website, we’re on the social medias. You can chat with us and engage with us or make fun of us or whatever you wanna do.

Paul: Is there a little Brent action figure yet?

Brent: Oh, not yet. We’ve now undertaken research is going to happen. So yes. So thank you very much and have a good time period.

Announcer: Full Mental Bracket podcast hosted by Paul Berkus and Brent Diggs. Executive producer, Brody Scott. Art design, Colby Osborne. Interact with the show at fullmentalbracket.com. This is a Brody Scott production.