00:00:00 – Intro

full episode

Brent: Good time, period. Boys and girls, ladies and gentlemen, neighbors around the world, welcome to the Full Mental Bracket Podcast.

Paul: Welcome.

Brent: Welcome.

Paul: And I love hearing it.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: For the third time.

Brent: I noticed, as I was thinking back to our previous episodes, that we never really introduced ourselves. My name is Brent Diggs.

Paul: Oh, my name is Paul Berkes.

Brent: Our secret’s out of the bag. Our secret identity, our secret identities, our superhero lives are ruined.

Paul: Man.

Brent: So welcome back, as I said, to the Full Mental Bracket podcast. We are on our continuing series about applying the hero’s journey story to your life and the benefits thereof. Today, we’re going to go into the element of assembling your tribe.

Paul: I love it.

Announcer: This is the Full Mental Bracket. 00:00:52

Paul:  Acquiring allies

Brent: But before we go into that a brief bit of housekeeping. I was thinking back on previous episodes I think it was episode 2. I said that discovering that hero’s journey was all about a meaningful life was our unique contribution to this ongoing story, and I was wrong. That was not our contribution at all. I went back through my notes. Important tool, have notes. So, ah Rogers and gang actually made this point very clearly and somehow I internalized that and then forgot that I internalized that and thought that I invented that. An accidental rediscovery. So, Rogers, and Gray, and Chicas, and Kelly, and anyway, there’s a whole bunch of them. Anyway, but they make a good point.

Paul: Et al.

Brent: Et al. Those et als, they’re at it again. You know that when it comes to the hero’s journey, you know, heroes are strong protagonists who take charge of their destiny. They have journeys that are sparked by a shift in experience. They take on an epic quest and have mentors and allies. We’re going to talk about that today. They are transformed by conquering challenges and they return to use their gifts to benefit society. And then…

Paul: The elixir.

Brent: Yes, the elixir. And then he points out that people with meaningful lives have a lot of those same sounding elements in them. That people with meaningful lives mean that they have satisfying needs of autonomy. They have autonomy in their own lives. They’re open to new experiences and have a sense of purpose in their life. They have a strong social support from finding their tribe. They persist and grow through challenges and they help and serve others. And so that the hero’s quest, at least as they’ve formulated it and we reformulated it, lines up with a life of meaning quite well.

Paul: Yeah. And you might’ve said that, but I think that we still emphasize like…It’s an OG to us to emphasize that these lives of meaning that follow the hero’s journey give us a sense of meaning as well. When we see them enacted..

Brent: Yes. And that’s maybe that’s the popularity is that we see someone and we recognize the meaningfulness.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: So, you know, this podcast is all about giving you tools. So even when we make mistakes, we’re still going to give you tools. The tool number one is have a note system. I have a note system, a second brain. I wasn’t using it the first time, but when I went back to revise, I was like, “Oh, I lied to myself.” The second tool we’ll tell you about is source monitoring. Source monitoring is a fancy word that psychologists use, especially in memory, about keeping track of where that memory comes from. So, a fact comes into our brain, and we remember that really well, but it gets slippery as to where it came from. Has that fact been debunked? Is it really a false fact? Did I hear that on TV? Did I make that up? And that part is not nearly as memorable. So, it came to me in an epiphany. I’m like, oh my gosh, Paul, I had this great idea. It was like a great idea that someone else had surfaced in my brain. And I thought it was my idea. And I was really excited for several weeks.

Paul: Since we’re all about the growth mindset here, it’s OK to make mistakes.

Brent: Exactly. And that’s the thing. That’s what we want to model to you. It’s not that a mistake is not the end of the world, but it’s an opportunity for growth. It’s an opportunity for honesty and connection. And if you make a mistake, just own up to it and figure out what you need to learn.

Paul: Yeah, you can’t learn from it unless you do admit that it was a mistake.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Otherwise, you repeat it over and over again. Right.

Brent: And that kind of goes in our previous episodes about the slide to the villain side. If you don’t learn from your mistakes, if you’re trying to drive other people’s steering wheels, there’s a whole thing. It’s like all of these little elements have like their dark side.

Paul: They sure do.

Brent: I could be a dialectic.

Paul: I was going to say it if you didn’t.

Brent: Daily dialectic. So, carrying on, we’re going back into the episode: Finding Your Tribe.

Full Mental Bracket 00:04:39

Brent: Finding Your Tribe is about not going it alone. Sometimes we feel, sometimes we want to go alone. Sometimes we feel like that’s the natural progression. Sometimes we absorb those stories from the media and that just feels like what we need to do. But we’re here today to point out why that doesn’t really work.

Paul: Yeah. You hear it all the time. I mean, on social media, you know, it’s like you got to look out for yourself and it’s a dog-eat-dog world out there. And then their solution to that kernel of truth is, “I’m going to do this alone.”

Brent: Yeah. You can’t trust anyone.

Paul: Can’t trust anybody. We’ll touch on that later.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: So how this connects with our main metaphor of Hero’s Journey is that seeing your life as an epic story strengthens your willingness to involve others. As Paul was saying, if you are the protagonist…

Paul: We’re there already

Brent: …then it’s not a dog eat dog.

Paul: Yes. No, I, this is, this is something that, uh, I think from a psychological perspective, I truly understand, because in my own life, I know that if I feel threatened, Like I put on the brakes and I think anybody can relate to that, right? Can you relate to that?

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah. So, if I’m going to increase my willingness, if I’m going to let off the brake, I’m going to have to— I’m going to have to be convinced that having allies is actually going to help me reach my goal.

Brent: Yeah, and I hear what you’re saying. I feel like sometimes when you’re stressed or when you’re uncertain or you’re afraid of failure, you want to, you want to decrease the circle. To simplify the troubleshooting. I’m the only one doing stuff, so I know if I screwed it up or not. I don’t know if someone else is screwing it up. You know, I think, uh, um, in my family, you know, I was really amazed with, uh, you know, my, my son-in-law and my daughter and like their kids are like, “I want to help you fix the house, Daddy.” And historically, that was nothing that was never—it was like, “You can help me by hiding in your room because this is already stressful enough with me without a second person swinging the hammer and smacking me. I smack myself with the hammer enough without your help.”

Paul: Oh, yeah.

Brent: They’re really great about that because they’re not stressed about it. They’re not worried about failure. They’re not—for whatever reason…

Paul: It helps you.

Brent: They’re more healthy. Like, “Hey, I’m going to expand the circle.”

Paul: Yeah, you get balanced.

Brent: Right. I mean, in that case, they don’t necessarily need the help. We’re talking about people who actually do need the help in the hero’s quest. But that’s a similar…

Paul: Right.

Brent: It’s like, you have to expand the circle because you learn, you grow and you trust. And as we’re about to discuss, this tribe that you—your allies, you that you acquire, they shape you and they form you and they shape the story and they provide important insights that you won’t have alone.

Paul: Ah, it’s so important because we all have blind spots.  

Brent: Yes. Which is why some of our genres of entertainment are kind of misleading. We have like these action heroes, the lone wolf, lone ranger action hero who doesn’t need anybody. And that I think that appeals to some of us some of the time when we’re feeling hurt or broken or we’re just really like, “I can’t trust anyone. It’s just me.” You know.

Paul: Are you talking about me?

Brent: No, I mean, you know, but I think you were saying even the Lone Ranger had Tonto, you know.

Paul: He did.He really did.

Brent: And then we were talking about this recently. And when so many of the, the lone heroes are, have a traumatic backstory.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: It’s not like they chose that.

Paul: Yeah. And yeah, we were talking about how the Lone Ranger had a tragic backstory that I think, I think over time people forgot about.

Brent: I meant to Google that and verify it, but in the dim recess of my memory, which has already betrayed us once this episode, I recall the old black and white show watching it, and the Lone Ranger was one of many Texas Rangers, and there was some massacre, and everyone died except for him, and he was the Lone Ranger. He was going to avenge them or uphold justice or something, but he’s going to go it alone because his tribe was dead. Do you recruit new rangers? Oh, heck no. Did he go and do any of this? How do you go to counseling? Did you? No, no, no, no, no. I’m just going to stay out here in the wilderness and hunt down bad guys. So no one else—no other tribe of rangers will be murdered again.Hollywood logic.

Paul: You know, we deal with logic. Yeah. We didn’t talk about this off air, but. You know, these allies, sometimes they show up. And it’s almost like you don’t even know where they come from, sometimes.

Brent: Unexpected.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Well, yeah, because I mean, it’s not like—although we are the protagonists of our story, we’re not really scripting the story per se. You wake up, you have a plan. And if you’re me, your plan goes out the window about 10 a.m. And then you’re like, all right, we’re ad-libbing. No plan survives first contact with the enemy [laughing]. Like, all right, what are we going to do now? Improvise.

Paul: As long as you don’t let that reaction become a part of the pattern, right?

Brent: Yeah. Sometimes I think we would reject some of our allies, and we’ll get to that. We might call those adversarial allies, and we think, ah, these guys are against us. We’ll come back to that. It’s the teaser of future value.

Paul: One of my favorite parts.We had a couple other ones. Batman.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: He definitely was trying to go it alone.

Brent: Right. He also had a tragic backstory, but he tried to go it alone, but ultimately, he had Alfred. He had…

Paul: He did.

Brent: In the Dark Knight series, he had Alfred, he had Lucius Fox. You got Morgan Freeman on your side, giving you sage advice in his Morgan Freeman voice.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Now, Mr. Wayne.

Paul: I wouldn’t even, the police chief was also part of it. So, I don’t know, you make good point that sometimes the protagonist isn’t aware that these allies are there for them and there for the resources that are possibly available to them.

Brent: Yeah. I think, because, you know, we think about Like Die Hard is like a solo movie. I think I mentioned in a previous episode that it’s really clear that he’s the hero. But, you know, he’s got the limo driver, Argyle, I think his name is. He has a little bit part and stuff, but he figures that out. You know, he’s got the he’s got the cop on the radio with him that’s keeping him sane and he’s going back and forth. And so, you know, it seems they keep showing him all by himself, but it would be a completely different story psychologically if he actually was all by himself. It’s me against a dozen terrorists, but he knows he’s got somebody on the outside that he can talk to. And sometimes just knowing that you have options is enough.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Like I’m choosing to do this. I’m not trapped here.

Paul: Right. It’s yeah. Sometimes that’s what you need for the motivation.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: You know in my world we talk a lot about validation and sometimes validation is just somebody’s presence in your life. Somebody who pays attention to you and it’s not like they’re sitting there, you know, pumping you up with all kinds of affirmations or anything. It’s like they’re just a supportive presence in your life and it motivates you to be the protag.

Brent: Not like a constant supply of active praise, but just someone who’s like interested in paying attention.

Paul: Yeah, exactly. It’s good stuff.

Brent: I feel that. I feel that.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: If I were to disclose a personal pet peeve, it’s like talking to people who aren’t paying attention. It’s like this—sometimes at work, I get this, “Well, you just need to go louder and shout them down.” It’s like, “I will not shout you down. I will not chase you down the hallway saying, listen to me, listen to me. Follow me, I’m your leader. It’s like either you listen to me or follow me…” Now that I’m not, I’m sorry listeners, I’m not saying this is a prescription for a healthy life. This is something that I do, that I’m currently analyzing to see if this is healthy or not, or maybe I should maybe not continue to do this. But that’s how my internal wiring is. I have a certain amount of experience. I have a certain amount of expertise. I have a certain amount of gravitas. I’m not E.F. Hutton, but when I talk, I kind of want you to listen. And it’s like, you’re looking at your phone or “Yeah, yeah, whatever.”

Paul: I’m listening.

Brent: Like, “Well, I’ll come back when you’re ready.” You know, when the student’s ready, the teacher will arrive. It’s like, “If you’re not ready, grasshopper, maybe I’m not going to keep talking.” Which ismaybe a little arrogant, but you know, that’s kind of, that’s an instinctive first reaction I have.

Paul: What did you just say?

Brent: Arrogant? Instinctive first reaction?Grasshopper?

Paul: Nevermind. [laughing]  Look…

Brent: You weren’t listening to me.He wasn’t listening to me.

Paul: You thought I wasn’t listening. Man, I want to look up that quote on the Lego movie right now. I never get it right, but he’s like, he’s like, “Repeat, repeat yourself one more time. Cause I wasn’t listening,” but it’s so much more clever than I can remember at the moment.

Brent: It’s hilarious when he says it, but anyway. So anyway, yeah, but that’s the validation. I kind of got off on a rabbit hole, but that’s the importance of validation. So, I guess I’m looking for validation from people too, and if they’re too distracted to have a real conversation with me, then I’ll just come back later. Because I just hate just putting all this energy into the room and it just falls dead. Maybe that’s the comedian in me. If I throw something in a room, I want this energy to bounce back.

Paul: Well, I like that approach, right. You’re letting the person know, hey, do your thing

Brent: I don’t storm out of the room.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Although that might be affecting…no, just kidding. Continuing on.

Paul: Some people might like lone rangers.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Storm out of the room.They’re like, “I’m done with you.”

Brent: Right. We had another example when were talking about Jack Reacher. Jack Reacher is a new kind of burst on the scene as the prototype lone hero. I mean, he doesn’t… travels with a toothbrush and that’s it. He’s on a Greyhound bus from city to city. No resources, nothing to lean on, just his huge muscles and his obscure knowledge about being exactly right about 60,000 different things.

Paul: And his two sizes, too small shirt.

Brent: Yes. [laughing] Especially season two. He looked like he could barely move. That was amazing. So yeah, but he draws—he you know even in season one and in some of the books, which I’ve read , when he when he gets in deep he goes back to his backstory.

Paul: uh uh.

Brent: Negley you’re not legally the PI used to serve with him in the army, and then one of the other books and episodes he brings like his whole army crew back to him or actually they need him, but somehow they kind of work together. And, uh, but, you know, no one is ever really alone. They really no one who wants to… Let me say this again. Let me look at the camera. No one who wants to accomplish their goals ever travels alone.

Paul: Ooh, that was good. Yeah.Drop the mic.

Brent:, I think if you’re an insistent on being a lone wolf, you’re not serious about accomplishing your goals.

Paul: Man.

Brent: There’s something a little adolescent, teenager-y about it. “I’ve been doing it my way.” “You keep beating your head against the wall.” “Well, at least I’m doing it solo.” “That’s not the benefit you might think it is.”

Announcer: This is The Full Mental Bracket. – 00:15:48

Paul: We talked about the mindset shift, last time. So yeah, in order to begin moving toward the goals, you have to have a mindset shift about your allies.

Brent: Yeah, your environment shifts. And doing what you used to do doesn’t work anymore. So, you have to find some new patterns, some new tools. You have to make the shift with the environment.

Paul: And nonetheless, there are still going to be people out there that are going to be like, “Oh yeah, watch me. I’m going to try.” And they might go a while.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: I mean, they might go a while alone.

Brent: The thing I come up with when I look at them is just like, this is what I do.

Paul: This is who I am.

Brent: Yeah. Are, the, are the (John Cleese) from the…Holy Grail. “It’s my idiom. It’s my idiom.” I have to come in and do this. I’m trapped by this particular method. And even though it’s wildly ineffective, this is what I do.

Paul: Oh my gosh.

Brent: So ,it’s kind of tied to an identity—Oh, so it’s tied to an identity. Oh, that was in James Clear. It’s like you have to hold on to your identities loosely if you want to grow. Because your identity from the starting point to the end point are going to be different. And if you’re not willing to pay out that line a little bit, you’re not going to grow.

Paul: Hold on.Are you saying that identity is not static?

Brent: Identity is not static.Let’s make that clear. Identity is a daily snapshot. This is where I am today. You’re running a marathon, and at mile one, you’re like…[gesture] At mile two, you have a different sweaty expression. [gesture]  And mile three, you have a third sweaty expression. But they’re not portraits. They’re not painted on the wall to remember for all time. “This is who I am: mile four, with cramps and shin splints and stuff.” That’s where you were that day. You were constantly moving forward. That’s the goal. This podcast is for people who want to be constantly moving forward. If you want to pose for a portrait and to stay there forever, you might have stumbled into the wrong podcast.

Paul: I love this. It ties into Seligman’s, this is not pervasive.

Brent: Yes.Your failure is not pervasive. It doesn’t affect every part of your life. It’s not permanent. It’s not personal. A method that you tried, failed. You learn from that, you get up, you dust yourself off and you move on.

Paul: What was that meme that you put up on social media the other day with the piano player? He’s like…

Brent: It’s like, yeah, some, like some teacher authority figure said, “Stop, you’re not very good.” And it’s like, “By continuing is how I get good.”

Paul: Yeah. Duh.

Brent: Yeah. But I think, oh, I know I’ve internalized a lot of messages like that when I was a kid, “don’t embarrass yourself.

Paul: Oh, I was going to say the other half of the story. Cause I almost wanted to respond with like the trauma side of things. I’m like, yeah, well, if he doesn’t believe I was then I was like, eh.

Brent: I was at work and I was like, started humming a song.And one of my coworkers thought she’s being smart. She’s like, “Don’t quit your day job, Brent. I was like, “You know, I came to Memphis to attend music school, to be a singer.”

Paul: If you only knew.

Brent: “Of the people in this room—I’m not amazing, I’m no Adele or whatever, but of the people in this room, I’m going to be in the top 80% of singers.” You know, whatever. Doesn’t, and it didn’t faze me. I just laughed along with her.

Paul: Good.

Brent: She’s like, “Oh, I didn’t mean anything personal.” Like, “I know, you were trying to be funny and you’re just not equipped.”

Paul: You said, “It’s okay. I’m a protagonist.”

Brent: “I’m a protagonist. It takes more than that to wear me down.”

Paul: I’ve got allies.

00:18:58 – The Myth of the Lone Wolf.

Brent: So, let’s talk about this lone wolf. We talk about dog eat dog. We talk about these lone wolf characters. And then it occurred to me…and I did a bit of a Googling around and there’s a great article by Brett McKay of the website Art of Manliness, which honestly, I’m going to tell you, Brett, the first 12 times I came across it, I thought it was satire. It’s like, “The art of manliness” [ridiculous accent] I can’t do that with even a straight voice. But as I was perusing their content, it’s actually quite good. And one of the things was about our human, usually male, fixation with lone wolves and alpha wolves and the whole thing. And he has this whole story like the people who did the research originally came up with the whole idea of the lone wolf and the alpha wolf. They were doing their research on packs formed in zoos.

Paul: They just ran captivity.

Brent: They had formed. They captured these random wolves from all over the country and threw them together. These wolves were in jail and they were surprised that there was some sort of dominance hierarchy and they were snapping at each other and determining who was the boss. They’re in jail. They’re prison wolves, dude. What did you expect?

Paul: Wow…

Brent: But some 30, 40, 50 years later, they go out into the wilderness to test this theory, and they find that most organic wolf packs are actually families. You have a mama wolf and a daddy wolf, and then the pack is their offspring. And so, yeah, if there’s a threat, the alpha wolf, you know, usually the male will go into attack mode. He might hunt and bring stuff back for the tribe, but they take turns. The male and the female nurturing their pack. It’s not like I’m this alpha male. I can’t touch a diaper. I can’t do this thing. It’s like they’re totally over themselves. They’re working together. They wrestle with their kids. They nurture their kids. There is occasional. I mean, there’s still wild animals, just occasional fights for dominance. But it’s not like this daily, everyday kind of thing. It’s like, “Well, I guess I gotta get off this couch and establish some boundaries here. I didn’t want to do this, but here I am.” But we fixate on that, you know? And the thing is that when the packs—when the wolves get old enough, from what I’ve read, they separate and form their own pack. And then you get this lone wolf traveling by itself, trying to form its own pack. And that is not when it’s strongest, it’s when it’s weakest. There’s no pack to defend it. If it goes through a different tribe—through the territory of a different pack they’ll attack.

Paul: Man. What a misconception right there.

Brent: The lone wolf is a phase in a wolf’s life before they form their own family, but it’s also a very vulnerable state. It’s not this tough armored state that some people try to seek out.

Paul: This is profound. This is profound.

Brent: I was going to make a joke about that, but it’s just, it’s pro. I found it. It’s pro. It’s, it’s a thing. It’s, it’s yeah. So, Art of Manliness, that was a good article. We’ll link it in the show notes.

Paul: Yeah. It’s pretty powerful.

Brent: So yeah, like, you know, a lot of times in our, our media and our, our own, like, tropes and stuff, we think of the lone wolf as like the strong person who doesn’t need anyone, but in an actual wolf pack, the lone wolf is vulnerable. This is the weakest point of their life. They’re traveling without their tribe. They have no one to back them up, and if they come across the territory of a different wolf pack, they could be killed.

Paul: And we literally measure vulnerability in counseling based on whether or not you even have a support group. It’s like one of the first questions you ask people is like, how vulnerable are you? Well, let’s find out. Do you have a support group?What is your primary support?

Brent: And if you say no, then you suck at vulnerability.

Paul: Well, [laughing] you automatically know this person is extremely vulnerable.

Brent: They just may not realize it yet.

Paul: Yeah. Well, they may not realize that that’s why they’re even in the office.

Brent: Oh, yeah. And that ties into the concept we’ve been toying with about social wealth—as relational wealth.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: Relationships as a form of strength and wealth that you can build in your life.

Paul: I am really growing—This idea of wealth is growing on me.

Brent: We haven’t really talked about it on the podcast yet.

Paul: Not yet.

Brent: But just for the future listeners to think that wealth might involve more than money, more than just change jingling in your pocket. There are different ways to measure a successful and satisfying and wealthy life. Relationally, not being vulnerable, having resources you can draw on.

Paul: Resources is wealth.Yes. Allies are wealth.

Brent: Ooh, I like it.

Paul: T-shirt.

Brent: T-shirt. Allies are wealth.

Announcer: Transforming your life through story. This is the Full Mental Bracket. 00:23:49

Paul: Henry Cloud, one of my favorite authors, he literally said, isolation can be so detrimental to our growth when we stay locked in our own limited perspectives. We’re like a computer trying to upgrade itself without access to new code. It simply doesn’t work.

Brent: Oh, I like that. That ties into our themes. You go on it alone and try and upgrade. How can you level up—How can you upgrade if you have no input from others?

Paul: Let me tell you how much even the word level up is growing on me. I used it in a session today.

Brent: Excellent.

Paul: Yeah. And I got a chuckle. The guy was like, yeah, he totally got it.

Brent: It’s good. You know, I’m not a huge gamer, but I like the occasional game and you’re doing something and you’re fighting and you’re getting your butt kicked. And suddenly this light from heaven comes down and. “You’re level 12.” And you’re like, the guys are still at your throat. You’re still fighting. You’re like, “Oh, yeah, I’m level 12. Gee, just you wait. Just you wait.”

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: “I’m going to get my new fancy sword now and then. Oh, it’s on.”

Paul: I hope you don’t mind me using another counseling example.

Brent: No. Go ahead.

Paul: Not naming the person. But they felt very validated as a parent because they were trying to balance this dialectic of admitting to their child that they were not perfect and they made mistakes.

Brent: Right.

Paul: Right. And I basically said, but that doesn’t mean that your life experience means nothing.

Brent: Right.

Paul: And that everything that you bring to the table is nothing. I was like, you are much, much higher on your levels than he is.

Brent: Exactly.

Paul: And he was like, “Oh,” I was like, “Yeah.” I was like, “And you’re trying to help him level up.” And he was like, “Oh, I sure am.”

Brent: Yeah, I like that because it’s kind of an immature outlook to think that just because someone’s at a higher level that they’ve never made a mistake. As we keep pointing out, mistakes are the… Try-fail cycles are how you grow. They’re how you level up. If you don’t make a mistake, then you never grow.

Paul: Yeah. But again, I know we’re not on the topic of leveling up, but the idea here is that he felt that he could actually offer something. He was, you know, his son’s ally.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: And he was trying to help his son and him having a clear picture that he was an ally actually helped him.

Brent: The lights came on.

Paul: He felt empowered. Yeah.

Brent: I’ve often found that is with people is just if you are authentic and you own up to your mistakes, it actually strengthens the connection.

Paul: That’s what I have, I find it more and more and more true…

Brent: That’s what…

Paul: …the older I get.

Brent: …If you are a hazard, if you’re bravely hazard to look in the political arena, people are blaming other people for their own mistakes and they’re not owning up to anything and they’re just flinging mud and it’s like, that’s just so tiresome.

Paul: Let me tell you how much you’re influencing me now. Okay. So like just this idea, of owning your actions or owning, you know, this, taking responsibility. It’s like a skill. It is a skill. So it’s almost like when someone finally gets it, you know, it’s like, I can, it’s like when I’m sitting across from somebody and they, they get it, I can hear the… dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dunt, dun…

Brent: Oh, that’s awesome.That’s awesome. Yeah, you gotta own it. You gotta own it.

Paul: But it’s like, it’s a benchmark. Like, it’s something that I think it changes people’s lives once they grasp the idea.

Brent: I agree.And I think sometimes, you know, sometimes I get confused. I get like the curse of knowledge and assume that everyone already understands this. And I’ll explain it to them.

Paul: Guilty.

Brent: And they’re like, they don’t understand it. But then if I think about it, it was like at a very young age, at precisely 20 years old, I was in abducted and indoctrinated in the Marine Corps, where you lead by example, you take responsibility for all your mistakes. “We know what your mistakes are, and if you don’t own up to them, we’ll smack you around and help you with that.” And I just internalize that. It’s like, you don’t lie about what you’ve done. I mean, how can you grow? How can you have trust? How can you do that? If you can’t at least be honest and you that’s a starting point.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And I’ve come to realize that not everyone sees the world like that.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Which is not necessarily I’m not kind of like that’s an amazing virtue for me, but that’s just how I was trained to see the world.

Paul: Yeah. Almost like you need a 12-step group for people that mask everything.

Brent: I was going to say a 12-step group for ex-Marines to get back to reality, but that’s a different episode. We’ll talk about that.

[Laughter]

Announcer:This is The Full Mental Bracket. 00:28:22

Brent: You know, we’re following our metaphor of the hero’s quest. So, the protagonist leaves their home, their comfy comfort zone, and they accept the shift. They embrace the quest and they take off. And then as they’re traveling, they one by one start assembling their tribe. But it’s not like, it’s not really clearly telegraphed in our life that this is tribe assembly time. Sometimes there’s a person in our path that’s in our way. Like, “What are you doing? Get out of my way.” It’s like, “Yeah, I was here first.” You’re like, “No, no, no, no, no. You’re a rival. You’re an obstacle.” You know, it’s like, “No, I could be, or it could be an ally. You just haven’t recognized yet because you’re, you’re sunk in a single frame of mind.”

Paul: You gotta, yeah, you gotta think it’s like, that’s part of breaking out of the static mindset, right?

Brent: I think so.

Paul: Yeah, it’s, you’re trying to find how you fit into a certain situation. Like going back to Neo and the Matrix.

Brent: Right.

Paul: So, you know, you gotta think he’s thrown into this situation and he’s trying to figure out how he fits into it all. And the moment that you were talking about earlier, with Trinity, he’s like, he’s thinking that she’s out of that mix, or out of the equation. And she’s like, “Oh no.”

Brent: He’s like, “This is my story, this is where I, everyone’s talking about me being the one, being the one, I’m ready to be the one.” And she’s like, “Well actually we’re the two.” And I was like, oh, oh, okay.

Paul: But he doesn’t even know that yet. He doesn’t know that, right, right?

Brent: Right, and when she says that, I mean, he doesn’t fight her when she says that, like, “Cool, let’s do it.” But it didn’t dawn on him. He was in this mindset, this viewpoint, where it’s all about him, and anyone that was in the way is like an obstacle. And it’s the same thing with what we’re talking about here is like, you know, you’re going and you might come across an ally and you think there is an obstacle.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And that’s something I think that came up in like the King Arthur mythology and stuff. A lot of times a knight would go on a quest and there’s another knight in his path and is like, “Stand aside.” “Nay, I shall not stand aside.” And they do this whole fight and thing. And in the middle of the fight, they’re like, “By Jove, you’re an amazing warrior. We should be friends and allies.” And he throws a sword down, too. And they like big manly metallic armor hugs and like, “We’re bros for life.” And it’s like that doesn’t seem to happen in our media today. But that was like, yeah, just because he was in your way fighting you doesn’t necessarily mean he’s not on your side, ultimately. That was how you had to prove your worth to recruit him. Well, if you fight that well, then I’ll be on your friend. But if you were a pansy that just wouldn’t — that was going to jump off the path when I stood here, then forget you.

Paul: I’m gonna have to learn how to make fun of movies more.

Brent: I thought you were gonna say you’re gonna have to learn how to sword fight and wear armor.I was waiting for that.

Paul:[Laughing]

Brent: I’m gonna have to learn how to sword fight and wear armor. Cause I don’t know how to do that. It’d be great though.

Paul: I mean, I take, I take movies so seriously that when somebody jokes in the middle of a movie or complains about something, I’m like, “How dare you?”

Brent: Oh, wow. That’s a hard time—I have a hard time with that is like movies that I’ve seen like a thousand times and I’m in love with and someone’s never seen it. I get to see it from like the new eyes when I watch them, but I’ve worked up decades of commentary too. And I’m like, do I deliver the commentary or do I let them go through and try? And it’s like, sometimes they glare at me like, Try was the right answer. I chose the wrong answer. Never mind.

Paul: Try-fail. [laughing] I’m going to say that whenever our stories have a try-fail.

Brent: I like it.

Paul: Try-fail.

Brent: And it takes the pressure off of you instead of like, “Oh, this was the day that I was going to, you know, slam dunk the basketball.” And it’s like, “Well, that was a try-fail. This is just another way that you haven’t done that.”

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: You know, I’m not a huge fan of like of Edison after we learned some stuff about his history, but he had this quote about he’s like, I’ve discovered another way of not making a light bulb. And he was like really clear about it. It’s like, I didn’t work, but it’s a numbers game. You know, once he had like, I don’t know, 900 or a thousand ways that didn’t work. He had one that did work.

Paul: Yeah. It was some huge amount. I was. It was a while back.

Brent: I don’t know much about inventing, but I know with create coming up with creative ideas and joke writing, it’s all a numbers game.

Paul: Or writing bios

Brent: Or writing bios [laughing]. Yes. So the first the first the first 10 or 20 are dead weight, which we hate to admit that because we love our darlings. Like, “Oh, that was amazing.” It’s like a sprinkler. The water in there is all contaminated. You got to get it out and let the fresh water come out. And you’re not going to get that until seven or 10 or 13 or something.

Paul: I wish somebody would have explained that to me when I was working with, you know, mentors, songwriting mentors.

Brent: Oh yeah.

Paul: Like, you know, seasoned songwriters. I wish, I wish somebody, there was one guy that I think tried, but we were not as connected, but there were so many people that would try to teach me, if they would have just told me, that, you know, these first, you know, 10, you know, songs or whatever. Because I mean, I remember being hammered for songs that like were—they meant everything to me. You know, like, I’m like, “What? That song is my heart and my soul.”

Brent: And I’ve had a similar struggle with this podcast. I’m like, these ideas are really cool to me. Maybe we shouldn’t put them in the first dozen podcasts. Maybe we should have some crappy ideas just to chum the water a little bit. Like, “Nope, forget it, we’re going.We’re doing it.”

Paul: I feel like we’ll do it again. I haven’t because we learn more.Yeah.

Brent: I think, probably. We’re explaining how we understand it now. And after 100 episodes, we’re definitely going to understand it better. We have to come back for the remix.

Paul: Well, it’s like I told you off air. I mean, some of these things you so elaborately describe. I’m just entertained sometimes listening. I’m just like, man, Brent has got a fantastic perspective on this. I’m just going to. Oh, wait, I’m on a podcast. I feel like I’m sitting here drinking my coffee, I’m like, oh wait, I’m being recorded.

Brent: I don’t know how talk shows do it, where they go through the whole script ahead of time, like Johnny Carson or Tonight Show or whatever, and everyone knows what they’re going to say, and they pretend to be, ha ha ha, that joke was funny the first five times you said it. I like it when we discover things live. I think it’s cool.

Paul: Well, it’s, it’s part of it, right? I mean, that video you sent me, you know, talks about the, the genuine, uh, the authentic side of what you’re, you know, what the story is, but you don’t exactly know how you’re going to deliver it.

Brent: I want to quote that guy, but I can’t remember. It was the, it was It’s the Knowledge Podcast from Farnham Street. Anyway, I don’t, it’s got Sweet, Matthew Sweet, Michael Sweet, somebody Sweet.

(Fact check: it was Matthew Dicks)

We’ll put it in the show notes. I haven’t made it all the way through that video yet. I just saw the first part and said it to you. I’m like, that’s so good.

Paul: Yeah, I took notes. I was taking notes. I was like, oh my gosh.

Brent: So, we’re vaguely referring to a video that we actually haven’t fully seen yet, but it’s so good that even having seen 10% of it, we’re pretty excited. We’ll put it in the show notes. We’ll probably talk about it again. You can’t stop us. We’re going to keep talking about it.

Announcer: Full mental bracket. 00:35:24

Brent: All right, so other examples of trying to go it alone. You know, sometimes, if you think about the Lord of the Rings, you know, Frodo tried to ditch Sam, first in the boat, and then later up on the mountain, under the influence of Gollum. Smeagol, he’s like, ah, forget you, Sam. Me and the slimy, bug-eyed guy, he’s my new best friend, my new BFF. It’s like, how could this ever go wrong? This guy I’ve known all my life, I’m kicking out for this slimy, lizard-skinned dude.

Paul: With everybody watching.

Brent: Who has multiple personalities. How could that ever go wrong?

Paul: You know everybody’s watching like, no! Don’t do it!

Brent: They’re yelling at the screen. Don’t do it! Don’t do it!

Paul: You know, here in Memphis, you know, we got, that’s what you hear a lot. Hey! Don’t do it!

Brent: Where, where do you hear that?

Paul: In the movie theater.

Brent: Oh yeah, that’s true. Oh, that’s right, because we are, so we haven’t really mentioned this before, but we are in Memphis, Tennessee. We are both former musicians in the city, name- checked in a thousand songs, coming to you, talking to you about media and story and entertainment. And I got to tell you, so you brought this up, this, uh, all right, friends, I tried to have discipline. This is completely off topic, but I’m going to tell you. Watching the Avengers — the Avengers number four

Paul: okay.

Brent: Not the Infinity War but Endgame right so we’re watching that and these you know these got you we had this spoiler You know all these guys fell to confetti in the previous movie and suddenly half the team was gone and everyone’s like oh no, and so in Memphis, we have a very diverse population. It’s pretty evenly split between black and white people. And we all, for the most part, get along, at least in my corners of it. But so different movies hit differently, right? So, when Black Panther hit, it was like it was a sellout here, man. You couldn’t get in it because the lines were out there. “This is great, man. This is great.” So, when Black Panther dies, spoiler, at the end of the movie, there was a lot of…

Paul: They’ve had time, though.

Brent: Yeah, they had time. So, we watch this and everybody comes back. And I tell you that when Black Panther walks through the portal, people were standing and screaming. “Here comes the king! Here comes the king!” They were like, I was excited. I wasn’t excited as they were, but I was like, this was this outpouring of joy. They’re like, “Yes!” We’ve suffered and embraced these obstacles together. And this reward comes around and it’s like, everyone’s excited together. I mean, I’m not really a sports fan, but it was like, oh, our team won! And it was tears and high fives. It was the same kind of energy.

Paul: Dude, that’s such a perfect example. Epic story. Epic story. We’re talking about a fictional movie here.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: And people are getting excited because of the exemplar.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Because of who this person represents.

Brent: They identified with that.

Paul: It’s beautiful.

Brent: Get back up. Anyway, so that was unplanned. But anyway, that’s bonus content. We won’t charge you for that.

Paul: Uh, I guess I’ll bring up Voltron.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: So, I mean, this was a, an obsession of mine and I absolutely loved putting these, these little, these little tiger guys or these little cats, you know, together. But you know, they always ran into something, you know, separately and they were like, “Oh, I can’t do this alone. We must assemble.”

Brent: You think that there’d be one episode where just a single lion could solve it, but then it would kind of defeat the purpose of the show, I guess.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.And there was somewhat of a hierarchy. I even read an article on it. See, now you’re going to make me cite all my articles.

Brent: I want to know. How was the hierarchy?

Paul: Well, I know that the black lion, I mean, he was considered you know, the boss.

Brent: Was that the torso?

Paul: The torso. Okay.

Brent: Yes. He was bigger in the body. Somehow, as we mentioned in previous episodes, the torso just got 50% more massive than the rest of the lions when they came together.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: They never cited where that mass came from.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: It was dark matter or something. I don’t know.

Paul: All right. I’ll go back, cite my article. What’s it, what do they call it now? Source

Brent: Yeah, we’ll put that in the show notes, too, if you want to know about Voltron.

Paul: Yeah. It’s interesting. Somebody’s take on the strengths, the weaknesses, and then once you put them all together, boom, they became a mighty Voltron power.

Brent: I tell you, that’s what I hated about kids’ shows in like the 70s and the 80s, is that as an adult, you can see that the adult exec said, ah, they’re just kids, we don’t have to explain the backstory, but you’re trying to wrestle with this. But in the last episode, you did this, and now you can’t do this. Like the old, old Speed Racer cartoon, I would memorize what each of the buttons did, and like, wait a minute, last episode, the center button launched the rocket launcher, this time it’s…Did you remap the button between episodes? And those guys never explained how, what the buttons did. You just, you got to hold on.

Paul: Oh, we are out there. We are those kids that were like…

Brent: I do.

Paul: …I’m so confused.

Brent: And that’s what I like about the media today and the attention that they play, at least with like the geek cred. They’re like, we got to nail these things right.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: After years and years of getting it wrong. It’s like, there’s the Pauls and Brents out there that are watching this and we got to, Give them a little bit of buy-in.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Oh, that’s a deep cut.

Paul: Yeah, the pendulum swung all the way to the other side. I think now, I mean, it’s like every single villain has a backstory now.

Brent: Yeah. And you know, and your mileage is going to vary. I mean, honestly, with some of the new Star Wars stuff, it’s swung so far, it’s deeper cuts than I’m even familiar with. And they’re like, oh, it’s so-and-so from so-and-so. Like, “I don’t know who that is.”

Paul: What?

Brent: I can see that you’re very excited about it. Oh, you’re like, you’re drooling. Like, good job. I’m glad you’re having that. I don’t want to ruin it for you, but I just don’t know who that is.Anyway.

Paul: [Laughing] Oh, man. You’re such a noob.

Brent: So, the thing about the allies, assembling our tribe and our allies, is that they provide alternate viewpoints…

Paul: Aw. Yes.

Brent: …on the problem itself and on the solution.

Paul: I can’t help but think about this proverb that I use a lot, the six blind men and the elephant.

Brent: Oh, I love that one.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: I love that one.

Paul: Most incredible, right?

Brent: Yes.

Paul: We use it, we use it in our life skills program. So yeah, you got these six blind men and they’re all sitting there. This elephant walks up. And they’re all feeling some part of the elephant. And they just, they’re talking about, they’re so sure about what they think this object is, based on what they’re feeling. Right? This is a rope. You know, this is a tree.

Brent: It matches their mental model. They grab the leg, and the leg feels like a tree. They grab the tail, it feels like a snake or a rope. They grab the ear, it feels like a fan. Oh, and the trunk feels like the snake. Ooh, it’s all wrestley, it feels like a snake.  

Paul: So, needless to say, elephant walks off and they sit there and bicker and argue for the rest of the afternoon.

Brent: Right. They’re like religious fundamentalists. They all have their take on the truth. I’m right. No, I’m right. No, I’m right.

Paul: I see what you did there with that accent.

Brent: But, and we like to look down on them, like, oh, they’re blind, they didn’t know, but we do the same thing. Even with two functional eyes and all of our senses, we lock on to our experience, our very idiosyncratic view of the world, and it’s like, everyone sees it like this. It’s like, spoiler, everyone does not see it like that.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: Even your spouse probably doesn’t see it like that. She probably just hasn’t told you yet. [laughter]

Announcer: Full Mental Bracket 00:42:49

Brent: So, let’s talk about the different types of allies. So we have a mentor that provides wise guidance. It might be wide guidance. Here’s your extra fat-guidance, because you need some help.

Paul: Can we go back to the Daily Dialectic?

Brent: Yeah. Did I skip at the Daily Dialectic?

Paul: I don’t know. I don’t know. Maybe. Possibly. Unless I’m… Tell us.

Brent: What is it? Tell me.

Paul: Unless I got lost again. Tell me. Okay. So, we talk a lot, we have talked a lot, about the protagonist needing to take responsibility for their own story and accept the assistance and the support.

Brent: Right.

Paul: Right. On the flip, well, that’s not on the flip side. If you take that too far.

Brent: Right.

Paul: You know, we call it enmeshment. It’s like almost like the protagonist no longer has a vision of his own mission at that point. It’s almost like there’s so much assistance there that everybody else is doing everything for you.

Brent: It’s just an extreme.

Paul: It’s just an extreme.

Brent: As opposed to the lone wolf extreme, there’s the super-supported, whatever, enabled, codependent, whatever. I don’t know what the right term is, but totally buoyed—You’re crowd surfing them for the rest of your life. They’re just carrying you around.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: They’re just carrying you around. So, you got to find that as so many parts of our dialectics, our daily dialectic, is you got to find that mental middle ground. You got to find that middle ground. I like it. I’m sorry that I skipped that. The show is better for having that.

Paul: I hope so. Because there are going to be people out there that are going to be like, I have my allies, I’m good. And then you realize that they’re not really protagging.

Brent: Right. Right. I’m trying to figure out what that thing is I guess it’s what it’s called when they have like the king or the queen and they’re on a platform and they’re just caring about pallet or something or paladin or…

Paul: Yes, what is that?

(Fact check palanquin)

Brent: …palaquey or something. It was like they’re just carrying this and you just sit there all lazy, no muscle tone, because you haven’t walked a step in your life, and they’re just carrying you around. “Yes  see how I protag?” Like, That’s not very protag. I’m afraid.”

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: “Look at all this travel I’ve traveled.” and it’s like, “You’ve sat on your butt the whole trip. You haven’t traveled any, your body has moved from point A to point B, but you personally haven’t engaged in the travel.” [laughing]

Paul: Gosh. I mean, in some ways, societies that have financial wealth and don’t realize it, like the United States, probably live and luxury don’t even realize it. They may not—When they compare themselves to multimillionaires, they probably don’t think they are. But when you compare yourself to the rest of the world, You know, you actually have all kinds of resources at your fingertips and don’t even realize it.

Brent: Yeah, and that’s, you know, as we go over frequently, at least to ourselves, like that’s the source of so much unhappiness. It’s like instead of comparing yourself to yourself yesterday or comparing yourself to people around the world, that whatever 7 billion people on the—8 billion people on this planet, you’re like, oh no, I want to compare myself to the 200 that are actually more wealthier than I am. It’s like, you know how hard you had to look to find those people? There are people all around you. Like, A: don’t compare yourself to other people. And if you do, don’t compare yourself to people that are guaranteed to make you feel miserable about yourself.

Paul: Yes. Yes. And I, I even had an epiphany about that, that idea of comparing yourself to people less fortunate because it, it actually helps you see them Protagging.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: And you’re like, wow, if they can protag through that situation, I sure should be able to protag through mine.

Brent: I agree.

Paul: I think that kind of is a good segue into the types of allies.

Brent: I think so. So, I think there’s multiple types of allies. So, one that pops to mind, pretty simple because we see a lot in the movies, is the wise mentor.

Paul: Gandalf, Yoda. Yoda’s my favorite.

Brent: Obi-Wan, Yoda.

Paul: We talked about Yeltsin.

Brent: We talked about Yeltsin. Yeltsin, he was only there. He was only in the thing for like 10 minutes, but he shifted the entire story. He was a very powerful, impactful mentor. And that’s the thing is that the mentor role, you know, it’s going to be different depending on how the story rolls out, but it’s about recognizing it.

Paul: The more that I think about Yeltsin, and it’s been a while since I watched Iron Man, but it was like, I remember watching that and thinking to myself, that guy is such an exemplar for someone willing to lay down his life for the common good. Right. Something that’s going to actually he had a lot of he had a vision of what Tony Stark could do.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Right. If he could if he could help him get out of that cave.

Brent: So, I think we’d have to circle back to him. We talk about the legacy because he was all about his legacy.

Paul: Legacy. Yes.

Brent: And he was about the legacy outside of himself. He’d already lost his wife and his own child. He wasn’t really planning on surviving this event himself. And he’s like, this legacy is not about me. How can we turn the situation, I’m not going to be around much longer, but how can we turn the situation around?

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: For the people I’m still invested in, the rest of the world. I’m invested in. Which was the contrast from Tony Stark, who really wasn’t invested in the rest of the world. He was kind of invested in himself, and himself, and himself. And then there was himself.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And then the world outside of him was like this foreign concept.

Paul: And I love how we brought up, it really was my favorite, one of my favorite parts of that podcast was how we brought up how it was layered. You know, because here he is, Yeltsin has gotten him out, and now he’s at a party, and he just realizes, this is not the place for me.

Brent: He can’t go back once his view of the world’s changed, he can’t go back. So that’s the way our protagonists are. Their view of the world’s been changed, something’s shifted, they’re going forward, they see these obstacles on the path, but wait a minute, hold on, maybe they’re allies. And we talked about one of them is the guardian, the mentor?

Paul: Yes, the mentor.

Brent: You know we also can have like a sidekick sometimes you know you’d have Batman and Robin you know, although, they’re still protaging their own story. They’re just kind of pointing a support role in this story.

Paul: Tonto

Brent: Tonto. Yeah, yeah, you know um you know you have the love interest It could be romantic and helpful. You know it’s not it’s I watched what did I watch I watched the old I? the old Flash Gordon serials in black and white, and there was Dale Arden, and she was literally a football. So, Ming the Merciless would capture her and drag her over here, and there’d be a cliffhanger, and then Flash Gordon would go over there and drag her back, and she had no autonomy. She was literally a possession, a trophy, to be drugged back and forth, and she was every time, she’d go, “Oh, I’m scared, oh, no. It’s another alien monster.” Look, we’re on an alien planet. Everyone you’re going to see is going to be an alien. You should probably get over this. “No, no, it’s another alien.” And she was crying and looking attractive and helpless. And it was, you know, it was like the 30s. It was kind of the time period of it. And, uh…

Paul: But the old ones.

Brent: Yeah. But it’s just like. A modern, a real-life love interest is going to also be protagging. That person’s going to be their own protagonist, but their stories and their future is entwined with yours in a more long-term fashion sometimes than some of the other friends.

Paul: I just keep having these pictures of the Lego Movie pop up in my mind for whatever reason.

Brent: Lego Movie’s a great story.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: We might have to do a deeper dive on that.

Paul: I think we’re going to have to.

Brent: We have to put a pin in that. We’ll have an episode on the Lego movie.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Because there’s so much good stuff in there.

Announcer: Full Mental Bracket 00:50:52

Brent: All right.So finally, we’ve promised this a gazillion times. Back to the adversarial ally.

Paul: This really is one of my favorite ones.

Brent: So, the adversarial ally is someone who’s on your side, but they’re not a yes man or a yes woman. They challenge you. And these are some of the best friends and some of the best allies to have, although in today’s environment, sometimes we’re too fragile to—“Oh, how dare you? How dare you not instantly agree with me? I’m gonna cancel you or block you or whatever.” And it’s like, “Well, maybe that was a reality check that you needed.”

Paul: Yeah. Yeah. Too much of that right now.

Brent: So good examples of the adversarial ally would be like Dr. McCoy in the original Star Trek. “Jim,” or like, “You green-blooded hobgoblin, what’s wrong with you? You can’t be all logical all the time.” He was all emotional all the time. It doesn’t mean he was always right, but he was willing to confront his friends to improve the success of the mission and to improve them. It was this whole iron sharpens iron kind of thing. We like to use that phrase, iron sharpens iron. It’s like, well, have any fillings fallen off of you recently? As you’re sharpening each other, there’s some friction there. It’s not the iron does not emerge unscathed. You know, the rough parts are filed off, which is not always an enjoyable experience.

Paul: Right. Yeah, gosh, see now my visual there is like. you know, somebody calls iron sharpens iron. Right. But like, as soon as the iron hits him, they’re like, “Hey, back off, back off.”

Brent: Hey, back off. “I need someone to really mentor me and sharpen me. It’s like, Oh, that hurts.” “What were you asking for?” “Well, I was really asking for somebody to tell me I was doing everything right. And just like pat my head. Like, there’s nothing I can teach you, you know, at all.”

Paul: So, we talked about Stranger Than Fiction last time.

Brent: Yes. Last episode.

Paul: We had talked about Anna Pascal as being both a love interest and an adversarial ally. That really was one of my favorite parts where she’s like, “You must eat this cookie, pick up the cookie, dip it in the milk and eat it.”

Brent: She’s challenging. Yeah. He’s living this whole life. You know, they make a big thing about his narrating. He always brushed his teeth 42 times or whatever. But literally, he always brushed his teeth 42 times. He was the guy, it was always within the—everything had to be inside the lines. And she was like, “If you’re with me, you got to be outside the lines.” He said, “Well, maybe I don’t want to be with you.” Like, “No, it was the wrong answer. You want to be outside the lines.” And she was challenging, challenging his viewpoint. She’s like, you know, this, you can do better.

Paul: And he didn’t realize he could.

Brent: He didn’t. This is the only thing he knew and he thought this has got to be the way it works.

Paul: Yeah. Until it didn’t work.

Brent: Yeah. It’s an older cut. I think I talked to you about it. A movie that I liked, people don’t watch it much these days, is Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves with Kevin Costner, a surprisingly American Robin Hood. Hi, I got this Midwestern accent, but I’m from England. Just take my word for it. And you got Morgan Freeman in there and all this stuff. And, you know, through this entire time, everyone’s saying, oh, it’s great. You’re so awesome. You’re a great archer. You’re a war hero. You’re this aristocrat slumming with us low hanging people. And but this Will Scarlet was always, “Oh, yeah, that you think you’re—Yeah, we don’t need you.” And he’s always given him gruff and he’s always given him gruff. And at first it was just like it. just as an opponent, he was just as an obstacle, but he wouldn’t leave. And there’s this amazing scene where they’re all ready, and they’re all living happily ever after again, and then the army comes in, and all their tree houses get burned down, and all his friends are captured, and he’s sitting there, and he’s like, and Kevin Costner, you know, love him or hate him, I love this movie, not everyone, younger people are unfairly savage to this movie, because I love it with a deep passion of fire. And, uh…

Paul: Wow.

Brent: Yeah. And so, he’s sitting there and he’s having these doubts. I recognize that in my own life. It’s like, I have this great plan and now I’ve come across this obstacles and this, and everything’s falling apart. Who was I? Maybe I was just too arrogant. I aim too high. What am I going to do? What have I have? All my friends are captured. I did this to them. And he’s having this crisis of faith. And this Will Scarlet guy who’s always kicked him every time he’s down, every time he was looking like kicked him in the shins. And he’s like, He’s like, “Are you really going to give up? Are you going to quit now?” And he has this moment. He’s like, “Will, Scarlett, what did I ever do to you? Why do you hate me?” And he’s like, “I’m your stepbrother. I’m your dad’s other son who shut me away to dote all his love on you. And you never thought another thought about me. And even I, who hate you, I believe in your vision. In spite of myself, are you really not going to believe in your vision?” He’s like, “I’ve got a brother.” And suddenly his whole thing turns around.

Paul: Shift.

Brent: It shifts. And he’s like, hot diggity, we’re doing this. We’re going after. It was like a Neo moment. I believe we can do it. We can rescue them all. It’s horrible that they all died. Spoiler, they didn’t. So, he did rescue them all. It was amazing. So, uh, and it was just, it was great. It was that moment. It was like, it was similar. It wasn’t the same thing as a Yeltsin moment. It was like, but it was a similar moment. So that moment that the movie twists, because they introduced the fact that his, his dad had another wife and all this stuff, but they never really followed up on that. And then this, this annoying kid, and he’s like, “I’m your kid brother. And even I, who hates you, I believe in you. What are you going to do?” And he’s like, he’s validated someone believes in him. Someone—he’s realized that he’s won over this enemy as to adversarial ally now. And it changes this whole viewpoint of the story from that point forward.

Paul: Again, I can’t help but see the layers once again, because you know that Robin Hood has, you know, becoming Robin Hood, there’s the development.

Brent: Right.

Paul: So, there was a shift earlier. But then here we are further into the story. And there’s another shift.

Brent: Well, I think we’ve mentioned that is like this. There’s a there’s an identity shift from the beginning of story to the end. And it’s got multiple shifts. And you have to be cool with that. You have to hold on to your identity loosely or you’re not going to grow.

Paul: So not only is identity flexible and not static, but we’re also going to see a shift in allies, their appearance, their exits.

Brent: Yeah.Oh, that’s yeah, that’s an excellent point, because. You know, in more advanced films and stories, you know, these allies in these roles aren’t necessarily—a character isn’t like doesn’t own them throughout the whole story. They can be roles or masks that are handed back and forth. So, at the beginning of the movie, maybe the romance interest is an adversary ally, and then they cross this threshold, and now they’re all buddy-buddy, lovey-dovey, and there’s less of that, and that role gets handed over to a different character. Because it’s all about shaping the protagonist. The protagonist has to have this character arc to learn how to become the hero that solves the problem.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: So, all these different characters are almost kind of like, they’re representation symbols of parts of the protagonist himself. So, this character can often be his own self-doubt, this person represents his self-doubt, this represents his bravery, or this represents her, this, that, or the other. And as they interact with them, they’re working through the struggles in their own mind.

Paul: So sometimes in the story, people are not always what they seem. Because friends could also be dysfunctional allies.

Brent: Yes. Or friends could be not friends at all. You could think you’re all friends until you try to get out of the matrix and you find that this guy is really not your friend after all. He really, really, really doesn’t like you.

Paul: Yeah. But somehow that role still shapes the protag. Yes.The protagonist.

Brent: Yeah. The sudden betrayal. And yet he continued on. Yeah, so I mean, I think you’re right. Sometimes there’s characters in there that are friends that may not necessarily, in a story, fulfill a particular function. Maybe they’re just kind of rounding out the cast. Or maybe they’re just like this mindless buddy that hangs out in a gang, and then one day they take over this role. Oh wait, today I’m going to be your mentor in this particular… You’ve now entered my wheelhouse, and now today I’m your mentor for this particular lesson.

Paul: Well, and as you’re talking, it makes me wonder if sometimes the protagonist is the ally for someone else’s story.

Brent: Because we’re all protagging.

Paul: Right. So, you know, that person, when you’re looking at it from the identified protagonist, that person may not fulfill much of a role that you can see, but yet if you were to take the spotlight and move it to this unsuspecting, you know, person in the cast and then do a backstory on them, you might find that the protagonist, you know, in this story over here is actually the ally of this unsuspecting person.

Brent: I like that. Or even the sidekick.

Paul: There you go.

Brent: Oh, you know, what’s a great example of that? I can’t believe we haven’t talked to this before. All right. Another classic movie —audience. You don’t have to love it. That was a lie. You have to love it. Big Trouble in Little China. So, Kurt Russell, Kurt Russell shows up.

Paul: Wow.

Brent: It’s the Pork Chop Express. You know, it just, so he’s

Paul: Got some cobwebs you’ve cleaned out there.

Brent: It was amazing, because I watched it like five or ten times, and it was like halfway through, I’m like, Kurt Russell thinks he’s the protagonist, but he’s the sidekick. His oriental karate master friend is actually the hero that’s solving all the problem, but he shows up with this real cheesy John Wayne accent, “All right, you know what Jack Burton always said?” We don’t really—we’re busy saving the girl right now.” “I got to I have this this is my solo I gotta tell you what what Jack Burton always says.” And he fires the gun up and the brick hits him in the head and he’s unconscious for most of the battle and he wakes up and “Yeah, I guess we kicked your butt.” Like, “You were unconscious for 80% of the battle.”

Paul: That’s a great example.

Brent: It’s amazing because, you know, it’s like there’s a lot of levels like the American taking credit for everything or, you know, the white guy taking credit for everything. But it was just like, I’m clearly he is the hero of his story. He refers to himself on the third burden and the third person. “Well, Jack Burton needs to go first.” You know, that kind of stuff. And it’s like, but in reality, he is the sidekick. He makes the least contribution to actually solving the problems of the story.

Paul: That was a good one.

Brent: I like it. And that’s what I loved about it, because it’s just so hilarious because it reminds me of me and other people, everyone else I know. “I’m the hero here.” It’s like, “Are you? Maybe you should step aside and let someone more qualified do this.”

Paul: We could we could really do a whole podcast on that idea. You know, how would you become, because clearly he’s not protagging, right?

Brent: Oh, how could, how could a Jack Burton become the protagonist of the story? Okay. Well, if we want, if you want to do an episode on Big Trouble in Little China, you are on. You don’t have to pay me. I’ll pay you. Let’s do it. Let’s put that, put two pins in that one.

Paul: We’re going to have to watch that one.

Brent: I got to watch it again. Any excuse. I’ll watch it again. I’ll pop you popcorn.

Full Mental Bracket 00:1:02:28

Paul: On to legacy, I believe.

Brent: Yes. So, mentors and legacy. So oftentimes, you know, the prototypical mentor will be someone who’s in their legacy period. We talked about all these elements and you come back with the legacy. And sometimes after you’ve come back from your own journey and you’ve learned all these lessons, you’re in a good position to mentor someone else.

Paul: Exactly.

Brent: It doesn’t always work like that as we mentioned that the mask can jump from character to character But when you see Yoda, you know, you go back to the prequels and you see the Yoda is fighting duels and stuff but when we first introduced him when we were first introduced to him, he’s an old man in a swamp. You didn’t realize he fought all these battles, you know, and we talked about the Hunger Games and then Haymitch is the alcoholic mentor but he’s alcoholic because he was traumatized by surviving his own Hunger Games.

Paul: Right

Brent: And which makes him broken but also makes him the only person in her, in Katniss’ circle that can explain what she actually can expect.

Paul: Again, multiple layers.

Brent: Multiple layers.

Paul: Because you have somebody who has… His own.

Brent: Right. He’s a mentor, not necessarily a super heroic mentor, a broken, tormented, alcoholic mentor, but just like it’s a dystopia.It’s the best you can do.

Paul: But I mean, he even has his own journey, right?

Brent: Yeah. Even through the movies, he does.

Paul: So he’s playing one role, but then he’s also overcoming his own.

Brent: It’s almost like you look at his character arc is he became like cynical and numbed his own pain and it’s like “Oh, I’m starting to believe again. Maybe we can actually change something. I was a survivor and I closed all my emotional doors so no one could touch me, but now I’m starting to open my door because this girl can do it. This girl could do what I could never do.”

Paul: And that’s a common theme right?It’s like the burned-out protag who used to who was a protag and now they’re in this new phase of life and they’re not quite they’re not quite the mentor yet because they haven’t overcome something. Like I’m thinking, I know this is kind of a crazy movie, but to bring up, but like Cool Runnings. You know, you got, was it John Candy?

Brent: John Candy.

Paul: Yeah, you know, his character, you know, just, you know, off trying to retire, not really doing much of anything.

Brent: Wasn’t his character disqualified because of some Olympic cheating or something?

Paul: Yeah, so, and he could never get over it. Right.

Brent: So he’s the unlikely protagonist. So, he’s not the protagonist, but he’s even the unlikely mentor.

Paul: Right.

Brent: It’s like, all right, so you want these Jamaicans who’s never seen snow, want to go, want to become a bobsledding team and you want to hire this disgraced, cheating Olympic coach. He’s like, “Yeah, yeah. What could go wrong? Of course we’re going to win. This is going to be great.”

Paul: I don’t know, we could do a podcast on that too. I think pulling protags out of their, out of their hole so they can become mentors.

Brent: Yeah, you know and to finish our thought with with Haymitch, you know, it was like a cycle across all the all the stories. That’s what you remind me of. It’s like this is quote. It’s like every if you scratch a cynic underneath is just an idealist who got discouraged and burned out. So everybody who starts off idealistic and then then they close their doors and like, “No you’ll never hurt me again.” And then just like “Hello, knock, knock, knock, knock. Here am I, your new protag. Can you open your…” “No, I can’t. No, I can’t. It’s like, all right, I’ll open just a little bit.”

Paul: So you just, that was like another backstory for a lone wolf.

Brent: Yeah. Yes.So some of these guys are lone wolf mentors that have to learn, even though they survived, somehow survived by the skin of the teeth, their ordeal. They haven’t fully come, they don’t have a full legacy. They barely, they’re broken by their backstory and they barely survived.

Paul: And most of the time, it’s an adversarial ally that pulls them out.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Because they’re like, “Oh, I can’t do it.” “Yes you can.”

Brent: You have to push. You can have to punch through that armor. Yes. So, I mean, they did have a legacy. The legacy was survival. It wasn’t it was an impoverished legacy, which ties into our multiple definitions of wealth. They got away with a legacy in one dimension, but there’s so much more that they could have.

Paul: I think we just got deep today.

Brent: I think we we’re in the deep end of the pool. We’re sorry about that, guys. There’s no lifeguard posted. We should have warned you.

Paul: I love it.

Announcer: This is the Full Mental Bracket. 01:06:27

Brent: So, one thing that separates protags is they’re often playing for high stakes. You know, we talk about, they left because the community has a need. It’s bigger than just them. And they’re hopefully coming back with a legacy for the whole community. So that helps, that informs the kind of tribe of allies. It’s like, it was like the, The Robin Hood thing, “Well, I just want to quit.” “Well, it’s bigger than you. You can’t go and pout now. It was just you, but then you riled everybody up and got them all locked up in jail, and now you can’t take your ball and go home. You are now [laughing] the entire community is relying on you.”

Paul: So now there’s meaning behind the suffering.

Brent: Yes.And you have to embrace it even further to persevere, which is an upcoming episode.  Alright, so here’s a quote. Here’s a quote from the new, depending on when you listen to this podcast, relatively new Rings of Power TV series. The currently nameless character, possibly Gandalf, we don’t know, says, “Alone, it’s just a journey. Now adventures, they must be shared.”

Paul: Love it.

Brent: So, if you’re going on an adventure to achieve the quest and bring back the legacy, you have to share that. You need your allies. No one goes it alone and succeeds.

Paul: That’s one absolute we’ve identified.

Brent: That’s absolute. Yes.

Full Mental Bracket

Brent: So we’re going to come to some takeaways. We like to end the episode with some questions for you. What’s a good question for them, Paul?

Paul: Well, are there areas of your story where you’ve been playing the lone wolf?

Brent: That’s a good one. How many times do we think that only we can carry the burden? Yeah. Or that we’re being a burden if we share with other people.

Paul: Like Frodo.

Brent: Oh, that’s a good one. Who could you invite to join your tribe and move with you towards the goal? What people are in your circle or what people are in your environment, they could be in your circle.

Paul: That’s a takeaway and a challenge.

Brent: It is. Well, that’s kind of what we want. We challenge you. We’re here about tools and growth. We’re giving you the tools. You got to take them. You got to grow.

Paul: How could the people you are currently challenging, who are currently challenging you, actually be your allies?That’s worth repeating.

Brent: Ok.How are the people who you currently find to be very challenging, who appear to be challenging you, are actually your allies? Like the King Arthur people, this could be your BFF and your comrade in arms, could be your wingman, your wing person, but you keep looking at them as an obstacle or an enemy.

Paul: That’s a good question.

Brent: That’s a good one. It ties back to one of our themes, that you should be able to learn from anyone. Anyone can be your mentor. Anyone could be your ally. You just got to be open to it.

Paul: It’s a great ending point.

Brent: I like it. All right. So let us know. Contact us at contact at fullmentabracket.com. Let us know what you’ve come up with. Let us know the answers, your answers to these questions. If you have other questions, you have things you want us to talk about. If you’re amazed at Paul’s Voltron and you want to know more about that, contact us at contact at full mental bracket dot com.

Announcer: Full Mental Bracket podcast hosted by Paul Berkes and Brent Diggs. Executive producer, Brody Scott. Art design, Kolby Osborne. Interact with the show at FullMentalBracket.com. This is a Brody Scott production.