Show Overview – 00:00:00

full episode

Brent Diggs: Good morning and welcome to Full Mental Bracket.

Paul Berkes: That’s right, Full Mental Bracket, not a partial.

Brent: There’s no halfness in our brackets. They’re full on or nothing.

Paul: We’re discovering things here.

Brent: Yes, we are so fancy, we have a fancy motto. Our motto is discovering the tools for success in everyday life.

Paul: I feel like, you know, if we would have thought ahead, we could have had like little shovels—

Brent: Oh Yeah!

Paul:  And little things. That’s what we do here.

Brent: We need to expand—Already we need to expand the staff. We need a Foley artist that’s having a pickaxe and shovels in the background.

Paul: Add that to Brodee’s list.

Brent: Yeah, a little buzzer. [buzz] “Five o’clock, everybody go home.” It’s like, “No, we just got started.”

Announcer: This is the Full Mental Bracket.

[Music]: Full Mental Bracket!

Brent: All right.

Paul: So where do we start?

Brent: Well, I think I want to cover a couple of things (about) what we’re going to do with this show. The idea behind the show is, as I mentioned, discovering the tools for success in everyday life.

Paul: Everyday life.

Brent: So I don’t know about you, but I think one of the important parts is that we’re discovering. It’s not like we’ve got all the answers here. It’s not like that we’re gurus. “Welcome to the Guru Podcast, where we fill your brain—your empty skull cavity—with our wisdom.” That’s not really how we’re doing this.

Paul: Yeah, I actually wanted to get away from that a little bit.

Brent: Because you’re such a genius, you’re tired of people coming to you.

Paul: [laughing] Exactly. People come to me, they just flock—

Brent: He’s got these first-world problems.

Paul: I just wanted to be off.

Brent: Off.

Paul: Off the responsibility for…for at least an hour.

Brent: Well, I’m frequently told that I’m off, so this is kind of my standard mode. So yes. So yeah, we would just talk about some things in life, not necessarily that we’ve got it all figured out, but we kind of curate a journey as we kind of look through some different tools that we’ve discovered, some things we’re investigating, things that worked well for us, some things we’ve heard good things about, we want to try. Kind of have like real life experiments, us and the audience, and just kind of see how it works.

Paul: It’s been a rediscovery for me too, because years ago I dabbled in this idea of your life being a journey and a set of events that can be strung together in meaningful ways. And even helped young people string together some events in their life, and I’m really excited to see what happens here.

Brent: That sounds suspiciously like our first tool of stringing events together in a meaningful and significant package. But before we go there, let’s talk a little bit about the other word in our motto: success. So, we’re no Dave Ramsey here. We’re not going to help you with your mortgage or help you win the lottery (like) any number of gurus and “drive the Lambo”. We’re here to define—We’re here to look at the multiple dimensions of success.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Because success is, is nebulous and it’s individual. The key thing is you have to define your own success. Everyone is—does that bother you?— It’s like, “Hey, I’m  gonna teach you success.” Like, how do you… How do we know we’re talking about the same word?

Paul: Yeah. That’s actually what goes through my mind. When somebody tells me something like, “Do you feel like you’ve been successful?”  I’m like, “Yeah, I do.” And then they tell me their story of success. I’m like, “That’s not what I was thinking.”

Brent: Well, it’s an unexplored assumption. It’s like everyone knows that success means this to me.

Paul: Right.

Brent: And everyone knows that success means that to you, but when we’re talking—we’re throwing that word back and forth. It doesn’t mean the same thing at all.

Paul: But there does seem to be this common thread. And finding the common thread between two people having a conversation. I think that’s—I think that’s what we want to do.

Brent: If we’re talking about productive engagement, I’m all about that. That’s a fancy critical thinking term I came across. See how smart I am? Okay. Guru moment: Productive engagement is where we put aside our agendas and our egos and we together seek the mutual truth instead of trying to “own” or  win or “destroy” our opponent or whatever. It’s not about scoring points.

Paul: Pinkies up when you say that.

Brent: Pinkies, yes. It’s not about scoring points, but as much as actually trying to figure out what the other person’s thinking and learn something from them.

Paul: [Scoffs] Learn?

Brent: Well, OK, there’s a danger, listeners. You might accidentally learn something here, but don’t say you weren’t warned.

Paul: [Laughing]But that’s what we’re going for. We’re going for—

Brent: Warning listeners?

Paul: Learning.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: Well, both.

Brent: Okay. Yes. I like it. So just real quick, and under the heading of learning: a couple of dimensions that success—we talked about multiple dimensions of success—but just to throw it out there for people to chew on. I mean, financial is one of the dimensions of success, but also relational.

Paul: Relational, yeah.

Brent: What else you got?

Paul: Emotional.

Brent: I like it.

Paul: Mental.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: I think that fits with our name. Uh, what else you got?

Brent: Well, you’ve read all but the last—you’ve, you’ve from memory pulled out my entire list except for physical. I was going to put some physical health and strength at the end.

Paul: That’s what I do. That’s how I was with my tests. I would memorize everything except for there was like one—there was that one—and I would sit there and people would be handing in their sheets. And I’m like, “I’ve just got the”—and it would come to me eventually.

Brent: So, listeners, you can’t see this, but I have a whole list and Paul just recited the list in order without looking at my list.

Paul: It’s that, uh, what is that?

Brent: It’s called malware on my computer.

Paul: [Laughing]Well, that’s one way to say it.

Brent: So anyway, that’s some of the stuff we’re going to talk about. We’ll probably end up talking more and more about stuff, but that’s kind of the general overview of the show and what we’re going to do. We’re digging through stuff, we’re going through everyday life, finding cool tools, seeing how they work, trying them on, doing experiments, and talking about it.

Paul: I like the word hidden.

Brent: I like that too.

Paul: Yeah, because I think that that’s part of the learning process, right? It’s realizing that you haven’t discovered everything yet.

Brent: Yeah, and I like the idea that it’s hidden, but not like in this super mystical, air quotes, Gnostic kind of thing, but just like, the stuff is laying about and we just don’t recognize it.

Paul: Ironically, I was thinking of—

Brent: Gnostic?

Paul: Gnostic.

Brent: Don’t use a fancy word.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: But it’s like—more like hidden tools, to me sometimes, is more like stepping on the rake and like [looney tunes sound effect]

Paul: [laughing]

Brent: Right up in your face. And it’s like, “it really wasn’t hidden that hard. It was really not that hard to find. We just have trained ourselves to look past it.”

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And that’s kind of the thing we’re talking about is that instead of like,” I was up on the mountain with a—with a guru last night. And let me tell you this wisdom I brought.” It’s like, “No, I actually walked across my living room and I found this thing.” And I think, “Wow, why didn’t I think of that before?”

Paul: And the funny thing is, I think those are those moments in life when you share that with somebody….sometimes you make a better connection.

Brent: Yes!

Paul: With something more common that you have found hidden in everyday life than if you were like, ” I would like to share with you this deep—”

Brent: Well, it’s more relatable. So it’s an everyday event rather than this cryptic wisdom. And you as a person are more relatable because you know, you’re like, “Hey, I’m not like the world expert on this. I might be just a couple of steps ahead of you, but this is what I figured out.” And sometimes that’s even better. It’s like, I don’t have time to put my head—

Paul: Mm-hmm.

Brent: You know and that’s even—aside Curse of knowledge and stuff and how the geniuses don’t actually think like amateurs anymore. So we’re amateurs. So hopefully you won’t strain your brain trying to keep up with us.

Paul: Man, I hope some of you got that.

Brent: Curse of knowledge. Okay, we’ll get back to that, don’t worry about it. I’m sorry.”

Paul: But it was a joke.

Brent: it was a joke.

Paul: yeah, but…

Brent: it is it’s a curse.

Paul: But…only the gnostics will get it.

Brent: my jokes are a curse.

[Laughter]

[Music]: Full Mental Bracket!

Brent: So, one of the first tools we want to talk about, actually…the very first tool. The first tool ever discussed on Full Mental Bracket…is about to be discussed in 3 seconds.

Paul: Drumroll

[Sound effect]

Brent: It is…Looking at your life as an epic story.

Brent: Ahhhh

 Brent: Epic

Paul: Epic.

Brent: Now, you don’t have to do the California, like, “Epic, dude.” But you can. You get bonus points for style.

Paul: Yeah, no, I definitely am—I’m thinking more like, “bom bom bommmm.”

Brent: Oh, okay. Surfboard’s optional—

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: But soundtrack: “Dun dun dun dunnnnn.”

Paul: Yeah, I like it.

Brent: Why do you think that’s important? Actually, let’s go back to the beginning—Back to the beginning—Back to the basics—I’m sorry. I was going to break into song. And that’s not necessary. It’s too early. It’s episode one. I’m not going to do that—

Paul: I know.I had a song.

Brent: I have to save something.

Paul: I always have a song.

Brent: Was it “Back to the Basics of the

Paul: Hip Hop Scene?”

Brent: Ooohhhh!

[Laughing]

Paul: No way!

Brent: [Laughing] (really hard)

Paul: That…That’s ridiculous.

Brent: All right, we got some loops and some lyrics…and a couple mics.

Paul: Oh, my gosh.

Brent: If you know what I mean.

Paul: Yeah.

Story is the Native Format of the Brain – 00:09:12

Brent: All right. Once again, that was unprompted and unscripted. So…have you ever wondered or considered why we still have stories? We have all this fancy technology; we have all this cool data stuff. We got spreadsheets and stuff. And yet we’re still obsessed by story.

Paul: Yeah. Just, the other day, I was with a group of people, and this was supposed to be a short, on the way to the car conversation, and suddenly—

Brent: Do you have trouble with those? [laughing]

Paul: [laughing] I do.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: I really do. Yeah. People wonder why I’m right…on time. It’s because I get hooked into people’s stories…and I might have a few of my own. But yeah, I mean, every person had a story and every person was engaged. They could all relate. And it was like at that moment, you could literally. You could see people…they were getting closer, right in front of my eyes.

Brent: Stories are like that. They hook you. A good story will hook you.

Paul: Yeah. My favorite part as we were preparing for this was to be thinking in terms of story is..And this is kind of where I am going to find myself leaning into some of my expertise. But I have seen this to be true with the work that I do. People unfold stories, and it very much seems to be the operating system at which our brain operates…or with which our brain operates.

Brent: I agree. I came across some idea somewhere that story is the native format of the brain.

Paul: I love that.

Brent: It’s like a lot of smart people in theology and science and other fields are like, “Okay, let’s separate the facts from the story.” And then they reiterate this dry, boring stuff, and then you fail the test because they took out all the fun stuff. [laughing] All of the grease and the cholesterol and the flavoring and the MSG out. And they’re like, “Here’s your protein bar.” I was like, “Yeah. There was a reason why it was in there in the first place.” That’s how we remember stuff, in my opinion.

Paul: Yes. Memory?

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Stories help people remember.

Brent: I was thinking, “Your stories, need to be fat,”

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: But your idea is probably more helpful than mine.

Paul: But if you think about it, when people are sharing a story, it helps them disclose information easier. When I’m listening to somebody, sometimes they’re telling me something that’s really intense. And I just have to take a step back and go, “Wow”—In my mind, of course, I don’t take a literal step back. That would be strange.

Brent: [laughing]We have to try it sometimes. I’ll jump back, “Wowww!!!”

Paul: [laughing]But I take a step back in my mind, and I’m like, “This person is sharing something really intimate with me. And, wow, they’re trusting me with this, and I can see that it’s just so much easier as they’re unfolding it in story as opposed to just giving me, like, this information.” Like, “let me tell you what happened. Let me tell you how this happened and how this occurred within my life.”

Brent: Because it also gets the emotions—it ties into their own history and their own personal narrative, as opposed to where you’re trying to do it all in the abstract. “Well, on Tuesday, I exhibited this…” like, “No, no, no, just throw it out.”

Paul: Now, some people that are not ready…

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: To share their story may…be very flat, like they’re reading an encyclopedia or something.

Brent: But I think that’s a good point. I mean, stories build relationship. Stories bind people together. They exchange not just information, but trust. I like the way that you said that. It was like it was an expression of trust. I’m going to share this story with you. I’m going to share a piece of my life. And when you absorb the story, you actually feel like you have a piece of their life now.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: You know them better because of the story.

Paul: You know, I don’t know if I’m skipping here, but

Brent:  Skip away.

Paul: When someone tells a story and you’re engaged with their story, they feel a sense of validation. They feel like, “My story means something to someone.”

Brent: Yeah. I was thinking about that too. Not only is it just, “Hey, it’s okay that that happened,” but it’s like, “You’re not alone,” So many times—There are eight-billion people on this planet, and yet at least three times a week, I feel, “I’m all alone. This has never happened to another human being in all of history. Only I have had to deal with this moderately low inflation in my tire on my way to work.” It’s like, “Oh, my first world problems. I need a tv special. Feel sorry for me.” But no, it’s quite common. But we forget that.

Paul: We do, and then what happens is you’re telling the story, or someone’s telling you a story, and they literally—It instills them with courage.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: They honestly feel like they could tackle whatever the next challenge is in their life. You may not even know what the challenge is.

Brent: It’s inspiration. Not only are you not alone—Not only have other people faced the situation, but other people have overcome the situation.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: Therefore, it’s possible to overcome. Therefore, it’s possible for you to overcome and…hint to the—pre hint, foreshadowing—If you pay attention to the story, you can learn how they solve the problem and apply some of those tools.

Paul: Learn.

Brent: It’s almost as if stories were tools for problem solving.

Paul: I see what you did there.

[Music] Full Mental Bracket

Paul: I mentioned earlier that some people, they’re not ready to tell their story in full. Right.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: So there does tend to be a…maladaptive style of storytelling that seems to be…It helps them in the moment, but it really doesn’t help them unpack or unfold or even share with the other person enough information for that relationship to be…I guess engaged is really a good word.

Brent: Well—how would. What does that look like? What is a maladaptive story?

Paul: Maladaptive. So, let’s. I’ll go with the one that I thought of. What if someone hasn’t really made a lot of sense out of some of the things going on in their life? And so, when they tell their story, a lot of people have a hard time following it.

Brent: Okay.

Paul: And so it’s pieces, it’s fragments, and they don’t even know how— They don’t even know what they feel. They don’t even know how to identify the feelings, and they sure don’t know the good that could come out of the challenge that they’re facing.

Brent: That makes perfect sense. I mean, besides the format of stories being sticky to the brain, what makes the format a story—one of the things—besides the emotional appeal, is that the events follow a logical order. This happened, then this happened because of this, then this happened.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: And if you haven’t had that—if you haven’t done that sense-making—if you haven’t actually sat there and thought about what happened to you and make some sort of story out of it, and make some sense out of it, then I imagine it would just come out, just random facts in no particular order. It’s like, “Do you understand?” “Uh, Not really.”

Paul: Yeah. I’ve heard people tell stories. Like, there are a variety of support groups over the years, I’ve heard people tell a story, and then I’ve come back maybe a month later, and I’ve heard that person telling the story again. And it’s interesting because people that are ready to tell their story, they have something to share with the world. It seems to be pretty consistent from one sharing to the next. Right? One delivery to the next, where somebody that has a fragmented story, it’s almost like you hear all these different versions because they’re still working it out.

Brent: Yeah. So, this might be a good point—although we have established that we’re not gurus, we do have specific experiences and backgrounds—and this might be a good point to mention that Paul is a therapist and works with people.

Paul: I am—

Brent: As opposed to animals or whatever might need therapy. [laughing] Plant therapist. “I’m a plant therapist. I let miracle grow, do most of the work.”

Paul: Yes, yes, yes. That’s. And I mean, you’re going to hear that.

Brent: right.

 Paul: However, I am learning just like anybody else. Especially about story. I mean, this is a new dimension—a brand-new area of study for me.

Brent: And I am a storyteller. I’ve done comedy, and video, and blogs, and writing, and fiction, and nonfiction—and creative nonfiction that was almost true, but not quite, because I exaggerated it so horribly. And I produce—edit video, and do different things, and it’s all about putting stuff in the package of story. And I tell tons of stories. You can ask my family, “Please stop,” they’ll say, “Please, this is not story time.” Like, “But every time is story time.”

Paul: [Laughing]So I’m hoping, I don’t know what you’ll get out of this, but I’m hoping, like, in a year or two. After, you know—

Brent: My family’s hoping that you’ll cure me of my storytelling—

Paul: Oh, no.

Brent: And we’ll all go home happy.

[Laughing]

[Music] Full Mental Bracket

Paul: The other day I was doing—and I thought it was a fantastic metaphor—a concrete metaphor, an illustration, you know of something—a didactic lesson. And it really was—I thought, “Man, this is spot on.” And I was setting it up, and I was explaining the theory, and I was looking at the room, and they were kind of like, staring…They didn’t seem engaged. And I thought, “Hmm, I wonder if this needs a story?” So, I put what I was trying to explain—I put it into a story, and it was all of a sudden, it was like, “Oh, man, I can totally relate.” You know, suddenly…boom—

Brent: The lights come on.

Paul: Yeah, I was just like, “Okay. I think that in some way, shape or form, I have not realized how important the story was.”

Brent: And this comes back to the tools hidden in plain sight. The discovery. Right? This is—You see all these articles from, like, Harvard Business Review, “Hey, executives, interrupt your PowerPoint with a story.” Like, “You think that’ll work?” Like, “I think that you’re boring—literally boring people to death. We had to carry somebody out in an ambulance. Please stop. Put a story in or two.”

Not that I’ve been through a lot of business meetings…[whisper] I have!

Paul: [laughing] I have heard so many things about these business meetings that go on for hours and hours and there’s no meaning to them. I mean, I think that they basically say everything that needs to be said is said within the first five minutes—ten minutes. And I thought to myself, wow, one of the reasons is because there is no connection between the people, right? So there’s one person running the show and nobody’s exchanging, I mean, we’re talking about story, but nobody’s exchanging their own experiences in any, any way. Right. It’s just, this is the way it’s going to be. This is the way we want it.

Brent: It’s a download of information.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Sit here and we’ll plug you in.

Paul: Yeah. It’s interesting because you could actually create an environment if you allowed people to share their own experience, it would create meaning with everybody in the meeting, and they wouldn’t feel like it was a waste of time.

Brent: But if you weren’t down—if you didn’t want their experience, then—and this is the common criticism in the business world—”This could have been an email.” We didn’t all have to gather here so that you could flap your gums and none of us would interact.

But other than business, I think story can actually affect your life as well, in good, positive ways. Outside of business, although inside of business…I think there’s multiple ways.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: So, for instance, I think that seeing yourself—seeing your life as an epic, engaging story, changes many things. And we’re going to get into them. But I’ll list them for you first, just so you can pay attention, for those, keeping score at home:

It changes how you see yourself. It changes how you see the purpose of your daily life. It changes how you see others in your life. It changes how you see failure and tragedy. It changes how you see your struggles, and it changes how you see the end goals of your life.

Paul: Oh

Brent: That’s a lot of weight to carry for one tool.

Paul: It is.

Brent: [Laughing]It’s like a swiss army knife.

Paul: I was going to say, it’s definitely a multifaceted tool, right there.

Brent: It’s the swiss army knife.

[Music] This is the Full Mental Bracket. Full Mental Bracket

Paul: When I think about story, I think about all the movies that I’ve watched—that at the end of this movie—I feel like getting up and being like, “I think I can go and conquer the world,” or “I can go and do.” And I think what in the world is that? Well, there’s something in the story that I relate to. There’s some character. So, if somebody was to ask me what my favorite movie was—

Brent: Tell me.

Paul: I’ve got a couple. But at the top of the list is the Matrix.

Brent: That’s a good movie.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: I like that movie a lot.

Paul: I was…that guy. There might have been—there might have been a period of time that I watched it every day for four months or at least part of it in between homework—because I was in college. And I think every time I watched it, I found something. We talk about hidden, right?

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Man, I was digging away at this thing. I don’t even know if the writers or the producers even knew how much there was. And some people thought I was crazy and said it wasn’t intended…to have that much. And I’m like, well, “You know, maybe there was some divine inspiration.”

Brent: I like it. I think the Matrix is a great movie. It has like all the food groups, you know, you’ve got karate and you’ve got robots—okay you’ve got kung fu—and you’ve got Sci-Fi and brain transference—

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And, you know, and cool cyber clubs and leather pants—

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: And just like, throwing it together—It’s like you’re going (on) one of those cooking shows. You have twelve ingredients, make a thing. They’re like, “Okay, here’s your leather pants. Here’s your robots.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Here’s your cubicle drudge. What can you make out of that?”

Paul: And then there was new technology. I think they were the ones that pioneered—

 Brent: They Invented the bullet time.

Paul: Yeah, the bullet time.

Brent: They couldn’t actually do it in video. I think, if I recall correctly, they had a series of still cameras that went [sound effect] and they stitched it together into a movie.

Paul: Yeah. Cause, yeah, I mean, I just—Oh, man, I remember it. Recall, right? Memory recall. Man, it was like, I remember when Trinity goes up for that kick. [sound effect] I remember the first time, I’m like, “What?

[Laughter]

Paul: What’s happening? How did they do that?”

Brent: And I think that, your know—one of the ingredients is a little bit of wish fulfillment. “Look at this. I know karate. Look at this. Anybody I don’t like: cops, soldiers, bosses. I’ll just kung-fu punch them.” [Laughing] And it’s like, “That’s a tempting option. Tell me more.”

Paul: I know. I think definitely appealed to people that would love that easy button in life.

Brent: Well, let’s look at—I tell you what. Let’s take the Matrix and let’s look at our different elements of story that we just talked about.

Paul: Yes. Let’s do it.

Brent: Shall we do that? All right. So, seeing your life as an epic story changes how you see yourself.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: So, a word that we’ve thrown around, it’s a long word, but it’s not dirty: “Protagonist.” When you become the protagonist of your story, you’re not passive. You’re not a victim. You’re not sitting on the couch.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: You are the one driving the story. Neo is the one that’s searching for the Matrix. He’s up all night [sound effect] typing away, hacking away. He’s searching and trying to find stuff. And that’s even before the story began.

Paul: Right. I think that we can relate to all that because he’s sitting there, he’s living this dull existence. And…there’s something—There’s something not right. He senses something. He wants to be a part of something bigger.

Brent: But even after the story starts and he kind of gets joining in with the crew, the protagonist is resourceful. The protagonist is driven, the protagonist is motivated, the protagonist is the one that, if they’re captured by terrorists, the protagonist is the one that squirreled away a plastic butter knife and is sawing away at the ropes because “I’m not going to take this lying down.” Because—for other elements, there’s a bigger picture—

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: There’s a ticking clock. “I can’t just sit here. I have to drive this story forward.”

Paul: Right.

Brent: And I think that’s a key part of being a protagonist that sometimes, I can’t speak for everyone, but for myself it tends to get left out. Like, “I’m just going to feel sorry for myself on this couch, and this problem will resolve itself.” And then after a month, it hasn’t resolved itself because no one’s protaging.

Paul: You know what I like about us unpacking this right now is that Neo had the qualities of a protagonist, and yet he really wasn’t going anywhere yet.

Brent: Right.

Paul: So, in many ways, even though his existence was dull and meaningless, he was driven by that sense that there’s more.

Brent: And ultimately he had to make a choice of his identity. And it comes up over and over in the movie. Are you William Anderson, cubicle jockey, or are you Neo, the chosen one? And the whole movie basically comes down to that choice and how he initially has to choose.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: They put him in the—thy pull the whole Gestapo thing, and he’s in the police thing, and he’s like, “I’m not Anderson, I’m Neo.”

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And then it’s not really real until they’re fighting around with the train and all that stuff. But you see the question come back again as he has more experiences—as he has more story. It keeps coming back to that. It keeps circling back to that over and over again.

Paul: I think it’s worth repeating that there are some people out there, unlike Neo—who are living the dull existence—and they’re not engaging in any way. Where he is—I suppose, he’s searching for meaning. So, he’s becoming a hacker. He’s providing all kinds of hacking services. He’s exploring. He’s trying to find something. And in many ways, it’s almost like he’s the pre-protagonist.

Brent: Right.

Paul: It’s like having those qualities of trying.

Brent: Yes. To continue pushing forward.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: I didn’t make up the word protaging. I think we stole that from another podcast.

Paul: Ahh.

Brent: But it’s a good word.

Paul: I think we’re probably going to use it a lot.

Brent: Writing Excuses, if you’re listening to this, we stole your word. We dare you—We’ll meet you by the flagpole.

[Music] This is Full Mental Bracket

Brent: So, another thing that seeing your life as an epic story (does), it instills a sense of purpose into your daily existence. Instead of like, I have to get up and go to work and eat my oatmeal and just go through the grind over and over again. It calls out to this larger purpose that informs and gives significance to what you do.

Paul: Yes. I can relate to that. Not even in the context of a movie, but in the context of my faith. Even very young, just realizing, “Okay, I do have a purpose.” It gave me the drive that I needed to overcome quite a few obstacles in my early years.

Brent: You know, as we were talking this through, you kept saying—you kept asking me, well, “What’s your drive to get people off the couch and stop being a victim? And why you always see it from one side?” And I’m going to answer you that question.

Paul: What? Right here?

Brent: It’s becauseI had a wave—so multiple waves. So I did—growing up, I kind of felt like a victim, and I didn’t do anything. And, as a result of that, I made some questionable decisions and joined the Marine corps and traveled the world and had some combat experiences. And then as we would tell stories, the goal was to survive alive and have a boring job and to get fat and happy—

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: And to be as boring and normal as possible. The goal, the dream, was (to be able to say) “My life is so boring.” And as I’m literally driving a truck at 04:00 a.m. across the freeway, there’d be like a light on and like, “Oh, that lucky guy. He’s at home with his wife and they’re getting up and they’re having a boring day. And here I am driving 6 hours on this stiff thing to go march and climb a mountain and stuff.”

So, when I got there, I was in no hurry to leave (to my safe boring life). And then there’s a second round. It’s like, “Hey, so I already had an adventure, man. I went to Mordor and back. I’m good, man. My ring is fried. I’m done.”

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: “But do you think it’s over? Are you just going to sit here until you die?”

Paul: Ah

Brent: “Like a hospice? Like palliative care? You’re just going to sit here, be comfortable until the credits roll?” And I’m like, “Well, it sounded good until you mentioned it like that. And now I’m starting to think about it.”

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: So, you have a second act and a third act and a fourth act, and you’re like, “Hey, there’s another adventure. Who knew?”

Paul: Yeah, we don’t thrive in comfort.

Brent: No, but you wouldn’t know that from the marketing.

Paul: [Laughing] Right?

Brent: “You have a problem. You’re not comfortable enough. Stretch-ease helps you. Tired of stretching your own arms? Stretch-ease will stretch your arms for you. [Laughing] And your legs too, if you act now.”

[Laughing]

Paul: But they knew this. The writers of the Matrix knew this.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Right? Because they even wrote into the script that the first matrix was too comfortable. [Laughing]

Brent: Too comfortable. There was no challenge, there was no adversity. And people like, “Ah, this sucks.”

Paul: Right

 Brent: [world worst Hugo Weaving impersonation]”Whole crops were lost.”

Paul: Yeah. [Laughing]

Brent:  The whole thing. That’s a really terrible…accent. Anyway…

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent:  So, in the matrix, Neo takes the pill, he joins the crew, and suddenly his life has a bigger purpose. He’s on a mission to free minds and fight machines.

Paul: Yeah, it might have taken him a minute to get there, because—

Brent:  Right

Paul: Holy moly. That transition?

Brent: We’re not saying that he got there. It’s just like—But from the moment he joined up, he had—So before he joined up, his goal was to get back to work on Monday and try not to get fired.

Paul:  Right

Brent: And then with this, as soon as he joins the story, his goal is: “We have to save humanity.” And suddenly there’s this purpose that gives him…

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And so, you know, when he wakes up and eats stale porridge and sleeps on a hard bed—which is—we’re skipping it to some of our next points, there was meaning to it.

Paul: Yeah, yeah.

Brent: His life arguably got worse. He’s not in a comfortable bed. No computer stuff. He’s eating stale porridge. These guys don’t look like they’ve had a shower anytime recently.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: You know, it’s not like he leveled up in this comfortable penthouse or something.

Paul: Man, you’re really minimizing the porridge. It had everything the body needed.

Brent: [Laughing] That’s what we’re told.

Paul: [Laughing] Well, not everything.

Brent: All right…

[Music] Full Mental Bracket

Brent: Bravely holding to the organizational content of this episode.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: Waving the flag in this face of chaos.

Paul: I feel like I’m doing pretty good at—

Brent: You are.

Paul: Making it feel a little more organic.

Brent: I feel, is highly ironic. It’s kind of scary and ironic that I have to be the organized one, because that is not my skill. By a long shot.

[Laughing]

Paul: I think we’re doing great, Brent.

Brent: We’re doing great.

Paul: We have a purpose.

Brent: All right. We will repeat in one more time for our listeners. [with conviction] Listeners, in case you were unclear or on the fence, we are doing great. Remember that.

Paul: [Laughing] We have a purpose.

Brent: Write that down.

Paul: There’s a meaning behind the suffering?

Brent: Yes. Great.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: Yes. We care about you so much, audience. We’re giving you some suffering so you can find some meaning, because we’re just that generous. No, we’re not.

Paul: I think we’re onto the willingness to involve others.

Brent: Yes. Yes.

Paul: Yeah. And this is big.

Brent: This is big.

Paul: I think it’s one of the biggest.

Brent: I think you’re right.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, there’s steps to get there.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: But it’s definitely a big part of story.

Brent: Well, I think—Because you find your tribe. Right? But sometimes there are some branches of story that minimalize this. You know, a lot of people, myself included, like the action hero who’s the lone wolf and stuff. And it’s, like, all by himself, but
A.) Not only is that horribly unrealistic on a logistical sense.
B.) It’s not mentally healthy. It’s not socially healthy.
And even Batman has Alfred and Lucius Fox and his whole people behind the scenes.

Paul: Yes. I was going to say, if you really dissect the story, you know, that Lone Ranger, the Lone wolf, they’re actually. They’re disillusioned, actually, and they’re actually not really seeing a clear picture of how they got to where they are.

Brent: I would—Yeah, I think that those kind of stories appeal to people who are kind of disconnected. Like, “So, see, I don’t have to get connected. I could just get a big gun and solve all my problems.” It’s like, “I don’t think that’s really—You’re creating larger problems, maybe.”

Paul: So, we mentioned (that) story earlier. We said that it motivates people to face challenges. I would actually say that incorporating relationships into your journey is also a challenge.

Brent: Yeah, it’s true. Doesn’t come easy.

Paul: It doesn’t come in easy because there’s so many—it adds a set of problems, but the benefit far outweighs the problems. And so it’s really—I think that as a protagonist is taking a look at his or her team, I think that there’s, the stories of others can help people to strengthen that willingness.

Brent: Oh, yeah. (stories of) how people recruited their team, how people found their tribe, can help because I think you’re absolutely right. I think it’s like, “Hey, listen, I don’t got time for this. I have to save humanity and free their minds. I don’t have time to negotiate this conflict with you. Get on board with me.” It’s like, “Well, actually, you do.” And there’s a scene like that in the Matrix.

Paul: Yeah. I hate to step in, but I saw this reluctancy, too. Right. You have to think, (Neo’s) not quite sure how he’s fitting into this team. He’s like, “Am I the one? I’m not even sure. I mean, Morpheus says I am, and then the Oracle says I’m not, Gah.”

Brent: And this is before gaslighting was a thing.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: But now your like, “Wait a minute. Someone’s setting me up for failure here.”

Paul: Yeah, but see, the way I look at it is its effectiveness over being right. The oracle knew what she had to say in order to move him in a certain direction. Right? So without getting too much off track.

Brent: So, Oracle is part of the team, too? Oracle is part of the tribe?

Paul: Yes, indeed. And I think that his willingness to listen, I mean, he was definitely listening to Morpheus.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: He had some reluctancy, but he still was listening. Right? He wouldn’t have taken the red pill, right?

Brent: That’s right.

Paul: So, yeah, I think that gathering allies and assembling the team and leaning on people who are definitely providing you with resources. I mean, people are resources,

Brent: correct.

Paul: But the relationship itself also helps—

Brent: It strengthens you.

Paul: Strengthens, yeah.

Brent: It reinforces what you’re doing.

Paul: Strengthens, yeah.

You know, for any sort of important work, important tool, any important anything. You have mounts, multiple mounts, and they’re reinforcing each other, and they keep things from falling apart.

Paul: Yes, yes.

Brent: Which is a very boring and unspecific metaphor that I just pulled out of my head. You know, on the lone wolf thing, I think one of my favorite scenes from the whole Matrix movie is like—you’ve got Neo. He’s like, given this diatribe. He’s given this whole—Not diatribe—He’s given this whole monologue about why he has to be the lone wolf. It’s like, [halfway decent Keanu Reeves impersonation] “Morpheus did what he did because he believed something. Well, I believe something. I believe I can get him back.”

Paul: That’s that bad.

Brent: Thank you.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: And he turns to Trinity, “You can’t go. I’m a lone wolf.” And my hair stands up on my head every time I think about what she says, “Let me tell you what I believe.” It’s just like, “I am the ranking officer on this ship. He means more to me than you. You just got here, and you need my permission to go back. And if you don’t like it, tough.”

Paul: Supporting.

Brent: He’s like”All right. Yeah that’s that’s—I guess that was… poorly considered, my lone wolfness. Let’s all go as a team.”

Paul: There’s a name for this type of supporting protagonist.

Brent: Tell me.

Paul: It’s that supporting—

Brent: Adversarial ally.

Paul: There it is.

Brent: The adversarial ally. They seem like they’re fighting you, but they’re really on your side.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: And basically what they’re doing is they’re just poking holes in your arrogance and the flaws in your plan.

Paul: Oooh

Brent: “I’m going to do this all by myself.” And it’s like, “Have you thought that through?” “You’re the bad guy.” And it’s like, “No, I’m not. I’m the guy who’s preparing you to meet the bad guy. Because if you met him now, he would smack you with a backhand.”

Paul: I feel like that role is just as important as the team.

Brent: I think so, too. I mean, that’s the thing of real relationships and real friendships. Can you give hard advice? Can you give difficult feedback? You know?

Paul: Um, hmm.

Brent: And I wouldn’t put myself as an expert or anything, but as I’m flipping through social media, and stuff. I see this whole thing, “Can you believe someone said something bad to me? Now we’re not friends anymore.” And it’s like, “Well, I don’t know very much about you, but it seems like that really needed to be said really badly, and it probably should have been said five years ago.”

Paul: Yeah. Yeah.

Brent: You know, it’s like if you’re going to cut ties to anyone that tells you the truth, you’re not going to get very far.

Paul: Ooh, man.

Brent: But I think that’s a real drive today. I mean, with our technological bubbles, you can do that.

Paul: That’s good stuff.

Brent: Any facts you don’t like, you can mute them. Any person that says something you don’t like, you can mute them. Any friend that tells you a hard truth, that tries to sharpen your iron. “Oh, you’re dead to me.” “I’ve canceled you,” or whatever. And it’s like, you got to be, you got to have—Hey, so this is a hidden tool—A tool hidden in real life: you have to be intentional about growing and developing, and you have to know that that’s going to require some difficulty or some adversity. It feels like that should be a point that we’re going to mention in a few minutes.

Paul: Yeah. Yeah, it really is.

[Music] Transforming your life through story. This is the Full Mental Bracket

Paul: So we’re talking about story as a tool. And there is something that happens to everyone at some point in life. There’s some—Either you lose a loved one, you experience something tragic, there’s something traumatic that happens. It’s a part of being a human.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: And in my line of work, I’ve noticed that people, they’re going to do one of two things: They’re going to try to dissociate from the trauma. And as a matter of fact, sometimes they may do that for quite some time because they’re just not ready to deal with the trauma.

And then there comes a time almost like Neo, you know. There’s just that there’s something that has to be done. Something has to be done. I cannot live this existence anymore.

Brent: There is a breaking point.

Paul: There is a breaking point. And so, at some point, I feel like story. When you see your life through the lens of story and you realize that you’re at a stuck point, it helps you to see your tragedy and your trauma as an obstacle that’s keeping you from your goals.

Brent: That’s good.

Paul: Yeah. And so I think about Neo. Well, actually, I think of Cypher. That’s the right character, right?

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: “Why, oh, why didn’t I take the blue pill?”

Brent: Right, right. That’s the voice of being fat and happy.

Paul: There it is.

Brent: Like, why did I sign up for the military? I could be fat and happy.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: In that house at 04:00 a.m.

Paul: And that dude went back in. Well, actually, we don’t know how that happened, do we?

Brent: That was. That’s kind of a plot hole. I don’t fully understand that either.

(fact check: He was killed by Dozer with a lightning gun in a thunderous burst of poetic justice)

Paul: Yeah, well, I’ll tell you what. He had every intention of going back in.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: And so, you have to think at some point, I’m sure Neo was faced with that.

Brent: To sidetrack to a different story. Think about Star Wars: A New Hope, right? So, Luke gets recruited by Obi Wan, who talks to him for, like, a couple days and then gets killed and is like, okay, “Hey, kid. Adventure’s all on you now. I’m just this crazy voice in your head that makes you think you’re insane, but you’re going to have to face everything by yourself now.”

Paul: Oh, man.

Brent: It’s like, “Are you going to spend a couple years getting therapy to deal with that, or are you going to move on?” And you probably should, but in this movie, Luke said, “No, let’s blow up some Death Stars.” [Laughing] Which is really sounding more and more like a terrorist the more I keep describing it in this fashion.

Paul: Man, Brent, you just fell into…You just fell into the therapy hole.

Brent: Uh oh.

Paul: That’s—True therapy would help somebody to work through that. Right?

Brent: Is there an escape? Is there a ladder or something?

Paul: [Laughing] (really hard)

Brent: I’m just—out of curiosity. I just want to know before we get any deeper.

Paul: Oh, no. We’re going to make fun of therapy later.

Brent: Abandon all hope, all ye who enter.

Paul: Yes, yes. But going back, I mean, all that suffering that Neo was going through.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Right? It was worth it.

Brent: In the end.

Paul: In the end, it was worth it. All that was worth it. And so for him to see the trauma, to see the tragedy, I mean, he lost people and—

Brent: But sometimes that takes time. That’s something that’s come up in my life and in my family. It’s like, “It’s too soon. It’s too soon for comforting platitudes. This is still fresh. I’m still bleeding. Don’t tell me it’s going to be all right. At least wait for the bleeding to stop before you say it’s going to be all right.” Good point. Thank you.

Paul: Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah. For some people, and again, I think this is kind of where we let people define these stages, right? Including this idea of success, of overcoming.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Because we can’t tell you. We can’t tell you if you’re stuck pining for comfort in the happy life because you might just be letting your wounds heal.

Brent: Right.

Paul: But again, I want to bring up this concept that. I don’t know why it’s sticking out to me, but it’s the protagonist attitude. You can be healing, and perhaps you’re not moving mountains yet.

Brent: Right.

Paul: But as you’re healing, you still have this protagonist mindset.

Brent: Thinking about planning it out—

Paul: Yeah

Brent: Seeing what you can do.

Paul: Right.

Brent: If you’re blocked in one area, go in a different area.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: I like that. That kind of ties into the whole story concept of try/fail cycles.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: It’s like, where you like, okay, this is our plan. We’re going to go right down the middle, and then you meet resistance in the middle, and you go to the side, and you, like, halfway accomplish the plan. Did you do what you said you were going to do? No, you failed. But did you move a little bit closer to the goal? Yes. You succeeded. So, it’s like, it’s more of this, like—it’s like “no and.”, “yes, but.” Yes, you made it, but—it’s a whole improv thing, and if you go back and look at a good movie, you’ll see it over and over again.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: It’s like, we did this, and it failed. We ran to the side hallway, and then we fell into this big pit, and then we did this.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: And then it’s just they continue to try and fail, but they’re slowly failing forward.

Paul: Yes, yes, yes, yes. “Nobody makes the first jump.”

Brent: Nobody makes the first jump.

[Music]  Full Mental Bracket

Paul: I remember, just because I had never looked at this scene the way that you talked about it when we were preparing. And that is they go to rescue Morpheus, and they are hit with lots of obstacles. Like, if their plan would have gone according to the plan, you know, Morpheus would be on the helicopter and they’d be out. But there’s, like, this whole process. Right. And it keeps you on your toes.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: And then you see Morpheus. He’s struggling. Right? He’s becoming the protagonist. [Laughing]

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: In his mind, right?

Brent: Right.

Paul: Which is a big part of being in the Matrix, right? And realizing that those rules don’t apply.

Brent: And I think—let me pause right here and say—in a story, in a movie, in a big capital S story, there is a protagonist. But in life, the point we’re kind of covering is that we’re all the protagonists.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: So Morpheus had to find his protagonist moment.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: And then when Trinity says, “Oh, no, you don’t.” She’s like, “I’m not like this helpless love interest saying, ‘Whatever you say, big guy.’” She’s like, “I don’t think so.”

Paul: Yes.

Brent: This is my ship, and you’re not going without my say. Everyone was a sort of protagonist.

Paul: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Brent: Except maybe Cypher, [whining] “Poor me, I want to go back in. I want my pill.”

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: There’s a lesson in there.

Paul: [Laughing] Yes, there is.

Brent: Carry on.

Paul: No, but I see that try/fail cycle, which, you know—this is easier said than done. Nevertheless—

Brent: Right, it looks great in hindsight when you’re watching someone else’s story.

Paul: Right. I think we’re going to say that a lot in this podcast. Yeah. Everybody else’s adventure looks—

Brent: But that’s the real power of—On the deepest level. I feel like this is the real power of the story. That you are getting smacked in the face with something terrible that you feel is unique to you. You can look at story and go, oh, this is a standard plot element. I need to get past this to do this. This has happened to everybody. The fact that it’s here means that I’m living an awesome story.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: If it wasn’t here, then I’d be like that guy on the hillside at 04:00 a.m. in the light and not having a great adventure in the military like I was.

Paul: Ohh.

Brent: OK, It wasn’t great—Your definition of great may vary—That particular adventure wasn’t all that much fun, but…

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: Anyway. But it’s the same principle. It’s like when you see story, you can distance yourself some sort of personal or psychological distance from the events of your life and see it in a framework of universal struggle of mankind. And womankind. And personkind.

Paul: And see it more objectively.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: Yeah, I see that scene. Morpheus, he finally…

Brent: He busts those handcuffs with his bare hands.

Paul: That’s it. He busts the handcuff—

Brent: I mean, he’s no “One,” but he’s pretty good. He’s like a Half or something. I don’t know. He’s Two or something.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: [Laughing] “You’re The Two. You could break handcuffs.”

Paul: Pretty awesome.

Brent: He is pretty awesome.

Paul: Yeah. I mean, in many ways, I always related to Morpheus a little more than Neo, but nonetheless, we’re talking about Neo. So, they’re like, “Let’s go, Morpheus.” And then he takes off, and you’re like, “Oh man, is that bullet about to hit? Ohhh. He’s not going to make it.”

Brent: Right.But you know, what it does is that kind of takes us into our next point, is that by seeing your life as a story, your failures and your adversity, you see them differently. Instead of an offense. “How dare this thing happen to me?”

Paul: So, I’m picturing the inside. I don’t know. That’ll probably be our slant here. I was always thinking about what’s the person thinking on the inside. So, I can see a stark difference between somebody who’s not a protag, right?

Brent: Right.

Paul: They’re a victim.

Brent: Right.

Paul: Right. I can see Neo if he had a victim mentality. You know, he’s watching from the helicopter and he’s like, “Oh, great. Well, there goes that mission.”

Brent: “Well, I tried.”

Paul: Yeah. [Laughing]

Brent: “I guess I’ll just have to go and be The One without him or something.”

Paul: [Laughing] Right.

Brent: You know?

Paul: Ooh, man, there’s a link that I didn’t even expect.

Brent: What’s that?

Paul: Right? Well, within Neo’s story or his narrative that he was putting together, Morpheus was a big part of it. And it drove him.

Brent: Right.

Paul: It drove him. He’s like, he’s not going to make it. All right. We got to try something.

Brent: Yeah. And he did.

Paul: He did.

Brent: So, think about some of the adversities and hardship that Neo faces. He fails to jump test. He struggles to fight with Morpheus. He gets bad news instead of hope from the oracle.

Paul: Yep.

Brent: He watches his friends die. He loses his mentor, learns that Zion is doomed.

Paul: That’s a lot.

Brent: Everything goes wrong, but he doesn’t quit. He keeps going forward and uses these things to learn and grow and to make an important breakthrough. The guy’s like, “I believe I can save him.” The thing is—if you look at it from a storyteller point of view—It’s not just those are things he overcomes to have this revelation. Those are the things that drove him to that revelation.

Paul: That’s right.

Brent: It brings us to our transformation point. It’s like you need this adversity if you are going to actually change who you are.

Paul: Exactly.

Brent: Which is much easier to say—[Laughing] I’m looking at you. “You need this adversity to change who you are.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: You keep your own adversity to yourself. Because I’m awesome the way I am. I don’t need to… change here.”

Paul: Yes. I’m the one that needs to learn here.

Brent: [Laughing]

Paul: That’s what this show is about.

Brent: [Laughing]

Paul: Put me in my place. [Laughing]

Brent: No, I’m just once again empathizing with people. They’re like, “How dare you? You mock my pain. Never do it again.” It’s like, “No, no,” once again, when we talk about story, it makes sense. We talk about our own life. It’s like, “Oh, that really hurts. That sucks.”

Paul: Yeah. I watched an unnamed movie for…reasons…at the very end, you know, one of the characters has this opportunity, or possible opportunity to go back into the past and change, change everything, right? And the person in charge of traveling through time says no, because everything he just did to save the world happened because of everything he experienced.

Brent: Oh, that’s so good. That’s so good. I think we talked about this a little bit. It’s like, you know, I live my whole life— from the youngest age. I’ve been a raving science fiction fan, right? Every time travel trope, I know it. Most of the movies, most of the stories, I’ve read them, the books and stuff. And as, you know, as not being really happy with the story my life was taking as a teenager and a 20-something. And even after I was married and started a family, I was still like, this could be a lot better. And I instinctively said, if I had a time machine, I would do this. If I had a time machine, I would do this. If I had a time machine, I would go back and tell eight year old me—if I had a time machine, I’d find that bully and smack him right in his face. And then it wasn’t until literally within, like, the last year, it dawned on me. If you had a time machine, you would not have learned any of those lessons. You’d come back from the past a flipping idiot and have to start as an old man and learn them all over again.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: I’m like, “Well, be careful what you wish for.” [Laughing] I’m so glad I didn’t ever find that time machine.

Paul: Oh, me too.

Brent: I couldn’t believe it because I’ve been thinking about this—grinding this for decades, and suddenly at the very end of the output. Output: “You don’t want that.”

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: I do. No, you don’t.

Paul: [Laughing] You don’t want the blue pill.

Brent: It stunned me. I’m like, “I don’t want a time machine?”

Paul: It’s crazy. Yeah.

Brent: And as we were talking about, our struggles are necessary for transformation,

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And transformation is another big word. But, I mean, that’s the thing, the difference between the beginning of the story and end of the story is often a matter of identity for the protagonist. The protagonist requires the whole story to smack him around and beat him into shape until he’s ready to change his identity, to become a version of him that can actually solve the problem of the story.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: He wasn’t ready, oftentimes due to wounds or difficulties or things he just doesn’t want to deal with, or she doesn’t want to deal with.

Paul: Yeah. So, looking at your life through the lens of story helps you to embrace the struggles.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Yeah, it’s a big deal.

Brent: Like we were saying, you know, Neo said, “Hey, I’m on this great journey. “And then he wakes up on a steel bed and eating porridge and cold and everyone’s wearing rags and it’s like, “But we were going forward to this great thing.” But all that stuff was required to get to where he was.

Paul: Embrace the struggle. And you can see this within people’s stories time and time again for as long as we can remember, right?

Brent: And I was slow to pick up on this. I have to keep reminding myself that every great story is a tale of transformation. Because I’m not always eager to transform—I’m eager to transform, if you could do like, transform, light.

Paul: Easy button.

Brent: Yeah.”Here, for 27 payments of $27.99, we’ll transform for you with no adversity and no struggle.”

Paul: And people are still falling for that. I mean, it’s like diet and exercise, right? But yet, they’re still pitching magic pills and stuff.

Brent: This was me from the youngest age, you know, like, “Hey, Dad, you’re great at playing basketball. How’d you be great at basketball?” “I just sat there and practiced for hours.” “Okay, well, if I wasn’t going to do that, how would I also get great at basketball?”

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: [Laughing] And I just lost one ball. Like, I’m done. You know, I got my—convinced my parents to buy like a weight bench.

Paul: [Laughing] right?

Brent: And I had weights and stuff. And I still remember this. I’m sitting there on the weight bench reading the Muscle and Fitness magazine, admiring all these guys. I spent more time admiring these guys, reading their nutrition thing than I actually did the work. Like, “Yeah, I could work the stuff, but if I spend more money and dream more rather than actually do the work”…and then I couldn’t figure out why um, my arms were slim and—

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: I lacked muscle mass. “I don’t understand. I’ve been sitting on this bench forever. You’d think they would just pack on.”

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: But it did not.

Paul: So, I don’t mean to go off on a rabbit trail, but do you think this try/fail cycle, after failing so many times, somebody finally realizes they need to listen to the stories?

Brent: Yeah, I think so.

Paul: I think so because this is not working—

Brent: Well, I mean, with a tri/fail cycle—yeah, sometimes it gets worse, but then sometimes it gets better and you can kind of see some progress. You’re thinking on your feet—

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: You know, zigging and zagging left and right.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: But if you just keep getting beat down and beat down and beat down. It’s not time to quit your story, but it might be time to go back to the drawing board. Am I employing the right strategy? Do I need some more people on my tribe? What am I doing wrong?

Paul: So, this would apply to whether or not you are actually trying to protag or if you’re just trying to go the easy route.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: You know, it’s like, I’m going to try the easy. I’m going to try the easy. Nope. Try the easy. Try the easy. Nope, nope, nope.

Brent: Or something just occurred to me is you think you’re trying to protag, but you’re just being stubborn. You’re just beating your head against the wall. Bam, bam, bam.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: “This protagging is painful.” It’s like, “Well, you’re not doing it right.”

Paul: Yeah.Avoiding the pain.

[Music]

Paul: Coming up on a big one.

Brent: We are.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Because seeing your life as an epic story changes the end goal of your life. I mentioned before, when I was in the military, my end goal was to be fat and lazy and happy and never have another adventure. But once you see your life as an adventure, that’s not good enough.

Paul: Right.And I would even say that even if you saw your life as having purpose, and this goes into a whole other dimension of what we’re talking about, is you may get to the end of a season or a chapter. This is what we need to say.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: And that purpose was fulfilled.

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Well, then what?

Brent: Well, I mean, I think if I’m following you, it’s perfectly normal to have a season of rest, a season of recovering before the next adventure.

Paul: Right.

Brent: That’s something that’s kind of missing out of these blockbuster movies.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: It’s like, “Hey, we defused the bomb. Oh, there’s another bomb. A bigger one. Oh, no. Now the earth is being destroyed by aliens,” and these guys are sprinting the whole time. [hyperventilation sound effects] And that makes it unrealistic.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: But the realistic thing is that there’s a season, and then you rest, you recuperate, you take a vacation, maybe. You consolidate. You think. You reflect on what you’ve gained

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: And what it means before you launch into the next adventure.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Otherwise, it’s just this headlong race, and you don’t ever appreciate where you’re at. You don’t ever understand where you’re at. You don’t really understand what you’re doing—

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Because you’re just trying to achieve this goal, which goes back to our defining success. If you’re just trying to achieve one goal and your relationships and your emotional health and everything else gets thrown to the side, then you’re not really being successful.

Paul: Right. Yeah. So, it’s that expectation. There are more chapters.

Brent: So sometimes you do have to pace yourself

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: Without quitting protagging.

Paul: And when you’ve fulfilled a mission, so to speak, or you’ve ended chapter of your life, there’s something about bringing back to your community the formula

Brent: Yes.

Paul: Or what some people may call…

Together: The elixir.

Paul: Bringing it back to the community.

Brent: Well, and I like that point because it points out that on a big story, like a hero’s journey kind of quest, it was never really about the protag. It wasn’t always about the protagonist.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: “I need to go and find my fortune.” It was like, “The community needs something. There’s a real problem.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: “Machines are harnessing people’s brains.” There’s a big problem that you need to do something about. It’s not just like, “I need to feel encouraged and empowered.”

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: Like, yes, that’s a great side effect. But you go on the journey, you find the sword or the elixir or something amazing, and you come back with wealth, with wisdom, with treasure to share with others in your community. You bring the resources back.

Paul: You don’t hoard it in the cave?

Brent: No. You bring the resources back.

Paul: Okay.

Brent: The people who hoard in caves are dragons. Not generally the hero, although that could be a great story.

Paul: Oooh.

Brent: …The dragon as a hero, but not generally the hero of the story

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: For just that reason.

Paul: Yeah. Well, you said antagonists are the heroes of their own story.

Brent: Well, I mean, think about this from the Matrix. You know, Neo doesn’t just win for himself. He brings hope to the whole resistance.

Paul: Mm,hmm

Brent: He changes the balance of power for all humans. You know, society was broken, and what he found helped to heal it.

Paul: Yeah. And you could see that. I think the writers did a great job of (how) all the different characters began feeling hopeful.

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: And it encouraged them—

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: To have courage so that they could protag.

Brent: And I think that’s it helps to heal the world. I think it’d be unrealistic that one person, one-and-done, “I just fixed the whole world.” But you did your part. You brought this thing back—

Paul: Yes.

Brent: That encourages other protags, other protagonists, and their story to help bring back their elixir, to help further help the world.

Paul: Yes.

Brent: You’re kind of reinforcing each other.

Paul: And this end result is unity, which I think we all, again, I think if I was to say story is the native operating system of the brain, perhaps unity is something that every soul longs for.

Brent: I think so, I don’t know if I would…I mean, I think—I don’t want to be pedantic, but, you know, more of maybe a harmony versus a unity, because sometimes a unity is like, we all must take the same note. I mean, I hear what you’re saying, but just so people don’t get confused.

Paul: Well, you’re redefining—like, you’re defining unity as being not so much everybody doing the same exact thing.

Brent: Unity versus unison.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent:  We don’t all have to be sounding the same note.

Paul: Yeah.

But, yeah—but a connection. A unity as a connection of different parts coming together to form a whole.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: A giant social Voltron! [Laughing] We all come together, “With our powers combined.”

Paul: No, you didn’t.

Brent: I did.

Paul: I literally saw one on marketplace the other day.

Brent: Oh man.

Paul: Yeah, $230. I so wanted to get it. I had two of them.

Brent: In case some members of our audience—

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: Did not experience this, or were too young to experience this. Voltron was a Japanese animation cartoon thing. When a disaster struck, you got in your giant robot lion, and if your giant robot lion wasn’t enough, your lions all merged together, become a giant robotic man. Made out of lions. To—

Paul: A warrior, Brent.

Brent: [Laughing]A giant robotic man made out of lions.

Paul: [Laughing]A warrior.

Brent: Your right hand, lion. Your left leg lion.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: There was kind of like the center torso lion—

Paul: It was black.

Brent: That kind of involved a lion butt at some point. I don’t know. It was just kind of weird.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: And then that the torso line somehow got right way huge, and then the arm lines were small, and—to make it look like a person.

Paul: You’re busting my childhood bubble right now. [Laughing]

Brent: It’s like, “I’m glad this is with pen and paper, because as an engineer, this would never fly.” But anyway—

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: I like that idea, though. It all comes together. As a kid, I thought it was great. Like, “This is great.” Because there is levels it’s like, “I’ve got a lion, a mechanical lion. Oh, my gosh. This lion is merging with the other lions,” you know?

Paul: [Whispers] Yes.

Brent: If anyone in Japan is listening, what about a multiple Voltron, Multi-Voltron, that’s made of Voltrons.

Paul: Ahhh!Dude. I totally thought that when I was young.

Brent: [Laughing] (very hard)

Paul: I was like, I think I might have even tried it. And I’m like, “how could these fit together?”

Brent: That’d be great.

[Music] This is the Full Mental Bracket

Paul: So, I mean, it almost seems like a little bit of homework, right?

Brent: Yeah.

Paul: So if you’re listening, the question is. Okay, I said earlier, like, if I was to pick a movie—

Brent: Right.

Paul: One of my top movies that I feel like I can relate to. There’s all kinds of parts of the Matrix that I just align with..

 Brent: Right.

Paul: But like we just found out I align with Voltron—Didn’t really have a voice in that—Brent does not align with Ultron. [Laughing]

Brent: I’m being painted as the anti-Voltron forces here, and that is not true.

Paul: It’s okay. I’m just playing. However, if you don’t align with the Matrix, what stories do you align with?

Brent: We want to know.

Paul: Yeah, really. I think it be fantastic. You know, we can bring them up.

Brent: And if any specific element that we went over, if one of them appeals to you, your identity or your adventure or your adversity, which ones stick out to you? We want to know.

Paul: Yeah. Or maybe we weren’t clear on one of them. Let us know.

Brent: It’s possible.

Paul: I mean, we’re trying to be humble enough here.

Brent: So, they should probably contact us at contact@fullmentalbracket.com.

Paul: Perfect.

Brent: That would be a great place to contact us if you wanted to contact the Full Mental Bracket crew.

Paul: You want to say it, don’t you? No, not yet.

Brent: Okay. This is a try fail cycle.

Paul: [Laughing]

Brent: Like, we had a plan. It instantly went out the window. And then the window-flinger turned to me, and like, “What’s the plan?” “You just threw it out the window. You tell me what the plan is.”

Paul: We’re going to have to pay Brody extra to edit this.

[Laughing]

Paul: So, what is one situation where you can use the stories, you know, to apply the wisdom and experience of other people in your own life? Well, that’s beautiful.

Brent: That is beautiful. This whole thing is beautiful.

Paul: It is.

Brent: Almost as beautiful as our Bracketeers.

Paul: Ahh, there it is.

Brent: Our audience.

Paul: See I said—I knew you were going to use it.

Brent: Thank you, Bracketeers. There will be more episodes. We’re going to launch a little mini-series on these elements to dig deeper into your identity as protagonist, into your adventure, into the elixir, into all these different things.

Paul: Yeah.

Brent: So if you thought we were just skimming the surface, you were right.

Paul: And we in no way promote Starbucks, but we promote coffee in general.

Brent: Coffee is an elixir of sorts.

Paul: Absolutely.

Brent: One of our members, who goes by the name Paul, brought the elixir before he even started the adventure this morning.

Paul: That’s right.

Brent: He was forward thinking.

Paul: That’s right. That’s what I do.

Credits: Full Mental Bracket podcast hosted by Paul Berkus and Brent Diggs. Executive producer, Brody Scott. Art design, Colby Osborne. Interact with the show at fullmentalbracket.com. This is a Brody Scott production.